Is this a pair of Apistogramma cf. moae?

[LBT]

I just got two A. cf. moae. Just not sure of male-female.
So my questions are:
Is it Apistogramma cf. moae
Are they a male and female?

 

[Frank Hättich]

One of your fish shows very distinct split vertical bars, something I have never seen on any A. moae. On all the pictures of the latter I know, merely in one picture I can see a very faint split bar. Therefore, unlike A. moae, your fish are for sure an eunotus-subcomplex species and if this is the case, it doesn't makes much sense to call them A. cf. moae in the first place. Anyway, do you have any information on the catch location? Are they even from Brazil?

 

[LBT]

One of your fish shows very distinct split vertical bars, something I have never seen on any A. moae. On all the pictures of the latter I know, merely in one picture I can see a very faint split bar. Therefore, unlike A. moae, your fish are for sure an eunotus-subcomplex species and if this is the case, it doesn't makes much sense to call them A. cf. moae in the first place. Anyway, do you have any information on the catch location? Are they even from Brazil?

Thank you for your reply. These fish came from Peru. Unfortunately I don't have more information. After a few more days of settling in, both start to show orange in the tail. The one which I am pretty sure is a male, also has steelblue on the gill, red and blue stripes and spots on the gill and a redish hue around the pectoral fins.
So eunotus complex is absolutly possible.
Furthermore they are still small, like 3-3,5 cm.

 

[Mike Wise]

It seems, from your description of their color, that the could be A. cf. eunotus (Orangeschwanz). This species is found around Iquitos, Peru and matches what you have described.

 

[LBT]

It seems, from your description of their color, that the could be A. cf. eunotus (Orangeschwanz). This species is found around Iquitos, Peru and matches what you have described.

Thank you for your reply. I understand that the eunotus complex is a rather diverse group with many variations and transition forms. Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

Knowing that your fish are from Peru and show distinct split bars, it in fact doesn't makes any sense at all to call them A. cf. moae instead of A. cf. eunotus.

 

[Mike Wise]

Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

New and/or rare always brings in more interest - and money.

 

[rasmusW]

I think i have seen the same stocklist as LBT. The describtion says: RÍO YURÚA, PERU.
-if that is any help.

-r

 

[LBT]

I think i have seen the same stocklist as LBT. The describtion says: RÍO YURÚA, PERU.
-if that is any help.

-r

That's just 30 km (18 miles) from Rio Moa in Brazil.
I love a good mistery....

 

[LBT]

So i've done some research. I was triggered by the reply of rasmusW about the stocklist. I called my LFS and he confirmed the catch location to be Rio Yurua, Peru. I still think that my fish are A. cf eunotus because of the split vertical band but I've read in Dr. Wolfgang Staeck Kleine Buntbarsche auflage 2017 that he caught A. moae in the vicinity of the city of Cruizero del Sol, in the catchment area of the lower Rio Moa and the Rio Jurua. Translated from German. Page 127.
The Jurua is the Brazilian name of Rio Yurua in Peru.
Now I understand why they are sold as A. cf moae.
Anyway, I have some very interesting fish.
And the other question about the sex?
The male is displaying all the time to the female, who is turning yellow already.

 

[Mike Wise]

First, Cruzeiro do Sul is located on the upper Rio Jurua. The Rio Moa, a tributary of the Jurua, is the type locality for A. moae. So that part seems ok. However all 'typical' eunotus-subcomplex species (= noticable split vertical bar(s) on caudal peduncle) are found in tributaries of the Rio Ucayali or close to the main channel of the Amazon in Peru, Colombia, and Brazil. There are species that can be questionably assigned to the subcomplex - like A. moae and A. sp. Nadelsteifen. Based on your latest photos, your fish fish appear to be in the moae/Nadelstreifen part. This is a problem that often occurs with not seeing the actual fish or with a limited number of photos that do not show the fish in different behaviors. Personally, based on the photos shown here, I see no problem labeling them as either A. cf. moae or A. cf. eunotus. If the collection site that was given is accurate, then A. cf. moae would be the better choice. That being said, commercial collectors often give inacurate collecting data to hide their true collecting sites from other commercial collectors.

 

[LBT]

First, Cruzeiro do Sul is located on the upper Rio Jurua. The Rio Moa, a tributary of the Jurua, is the type locality for A. moae. So that part seems ok. However all 'typical' eunotus-subcomplex species (= noticable split vertical bar(s) on caudal peduncle) are found in tributaries of the Rio Ucayali or close to the main channel of the Amazon in Peru, Colombia, and Brazil. There are species that can be questionably assigned to the subcomplex - like A. moae and A. sp. Nadelsteifen. Based on your latest photos, your fish fish appear to be in the moae/Nadelstreifen part. This is a problem that often occurs with not seeing the actual fish or with a limited number of photos that do not show the fish in different behaviors. Personally, based on the photos shown here, I see no problem labeling them as either A. cf. moae or A. cf. eunotus. If the collection site that was given is accurate, then A. cf. moae would be the better choice. That being said, commercial collectors often give inacurate collecting data to hide their true collecting sites from other commercial collectors.

Thank you for your reply. To me it just proves that they are very interesting. Either way they are fish that tell a story. The nadelstreif (needlestripe) is one I never heard of before. Since we have no way of knowing if it's the real collection site, I will for the time being refer to them as A. cf. moae. I will keep foto updates as they grow and hopefully spawn.