Is this the infamous: "Macmasteri, blue steel"?

[OHR]

Is it?

There are both males and females on the pictures?
I suspect there are two of each in the tank, at least one certain female as she is starting to change colouration. And there is one who I suspect is male close by in the same space all the time.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
It's really difficult to tell from the photo's, how many fish are there?
Some the photos with fish the prominent black caudal blotch like very "Blue-steel" like, but one of the photos appears to have a fish with red stripes at the top and bottom of the tail (caudal) fin and no black blotch, suggesting that may be MacMasteri, but they are just too out of focus to tell.

Have a look here: <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_sp_Steel_blue.php>
& <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_macmasteri.php>

cheers Darrel

 

[OHR]

There are four fishes. Two of them seems to be spawning and the other two hiding. I see them well enough but can`t get them into focus in the open as they get chased by the pair. Took a few pictures today and will try to load them up if I figure out photobucket.

I`ve seen those pictures Darrel, but can`t say that they match either one. But they look like something in between. My guess is that they are macmasteri "blue steel" on their way back to the original macmasteri form as they are second generation from the LFS.

 

[OHR]

:biggrin:This is pictures of a first generation male from my LFS:

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Very intriguing, but somewhat beyond me. I'm not sure where the macmasteri bit comes in, we would really need a good photo of the fish with the red tail. The pictures of the F1 are definitely a male Blue-steel (looks a bit thin & stressed from live in the LFS).

I think that although A. "Blue-steel" is of unknown origin, it is likely that it is a hybrid of fish from the A. resticulosa, A. caeti and A. "wagenfleck" area, to quote our moderator "It has mixes of features of both the caetei- and resticulosa-complexes. That, however, does not mean that it is absolutely positively a hybrid species. There is a species collected from the Rio Paru that has similar mixed features (A. sp. Paru A25)."

This is a long way genetically from A. macmasteri, what did the female look like?

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

After looking at the last photos, I don't think it is the Steel-blue Apisto. Steel-blue has a caudal fin covered with rows of spots. This fish doesn't. I agree, it certainly isn't a macmasteri-complex species either. It seems to have the features seen on species of the resticulosa-complex. It might be A. taeniata or A. sp. Wangenflecken/Cheek-spots, but I can't be sure from the present photos. Is there any chance to see a photo of the female? The only other possibility is that the fish are Steel-blue, but of poor quality, and are regressing to one of their ancestral species characteristics.

 

[OHR]

Thank you for answering Mike Wise.

The Exiting thing about this fishes ancestors is that they came from a tank with lots of wildcaught (and misidentified) apistos from Peru.

I got the parents for free as they were dying from overcrowding and other big ciklids and they weren`t much too look at, all pale and fins eaten (Dw1305 is spot on, these pictures are taken some time after they got in my care).
But I had seen them before and were certain they were a pair.

The dealer thought they were "steel blue" and I never gave it a second guess. Neither ever was the "ugly duckling becoming a swan" and I sold them away with my other apistos to start fresh with wild forms.

After I promised them away they all started courting as I got my apistos sorted and separated, all thanks to Tom C. (He has never seen pictures of these as I was and still am a bit shamefull for owning "steel blue"`s). I just felt sorry for them in that LFS tank.:redface:

Now: it never was my intention to breed these but they are here, so what to do?
I have no interest in breeding "blue steel" or any other mix.
On the other hand watching these go back into their original species would have been an exiting experiment.

But, I am all out of tanks and my LFS has wild panduros at 25 us$ pr fish (which is a deterrent) but they look the part. Great quality and size and a female who is ready to spawn immediately she sees a male. She is gorgeous. The males a more of a gamble as they too live in an overcrowded tank with other ciklids and are a bit on the pale side.

So i guess i`m stuck with them for a while until someone figures positively what they are. And if Mike Wise can`t who can? I guess I`ll just have to wait a couple of months until they colour out fully.

if it helps there were a pair of wild caught black chins in the tank at the time of spawning. He could have sneaked into the coconut

Here are some low quality pictures of the female:

 

[OHR]

Here are some new and better images of the female:

She has three dots like this ... replacing the lateral band in one of her moods, if that is of any help?

The male blocked the wiew and I got some more shots which I think should be usefull:

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Even more intriguing, A. regani like stripes and she is definitely a female.
Has Tom C seen them?
cheers Darrel

 

[OHR]

Sorry about the pictures going awol :redface: I am trying to learn photobucket, just have patience.

Since i did`nt write down which pictures I posted where I will just link to my album with pictures of them: http://s886.photobucket.com/albums/ac66/or3/Blue%20steel/

 

[Mike Wise]

Thanks for the new photos. They help very much. I am certain that the fish are A. sp. Wangenflecken/Cheek-spots. The pattern of very narrow lateral blotches and the long oval shape of the caudal spot on the female are diagnostic for A. sp. Wangenflecken. The male shows the bowed vertical bars typical of Wangenflecken.

 

[OHR]

Thank you Mr Wise, I really appreciate your help. And I like your answer too.:wink:
I can`t find the distribution or preferance of water values for this species can anyone help me out?
If that turns out to be in collecting distance of Iquitos I`ve probably found a gem. As all the other Wild caught species came from that region as far as I`ve been able to figure out.

I have been looking around and found an "Apistogramma identification sheet" from 1999 with a reference to apistowise/bewellnet.com is this still valid?
Would`ent it be a good idea to stick it to the top to help describe/photograph the important details?

And dw1305 I saw your pictures of steel-blue males at photobucket, one of them looked a lot like this alpha male in the face.

Thanks, great forum BTW.

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, the home of A. sp. Wangenflecken is as far from Peru as you can get. It is found on the Ilha de Marajó, the large island at the mouth of the Amazon River. It appears that somewhere along their travels, they got mixed with Peruvian species. Wangenflecken is a whitewater species that will breed in neutral to slightly alkaline, moderately hard water.

I think that the "Apistogramma identification sheet" that you're referring to is the one I recommended on The Krib over 10 years ago. The email address is one that I had about that time. It should still work fine. I recently wrote a similar post on this site:

"Too many photos that come to this section are similar to these. Some of the photos are good enough for a good ID - some are not. If you want a decent ID, then I suggest that you look at your photos critically. Ask yourself:

1. Does it show the fish's head/body shape accurately (as perpendicular to the camera as possible; not head on or tail on shots)?

2. Does it show the fish's finnage accurately (raised spines, spread tail)?

3. Does it show the fish's dark markings on the head, body and fins accurately? These are the most important diagnostic features on apistos. These dark markings are best seen on stressed/frightened males and females in a neutral mood. This is why it is helpful (to me) that photos of the female be provided if possible.

4. What was the name that the fish was sold as? Sometimes it hints at what it is; sometimes not, but it doesn't hurt to add this information.

5. How large is the fish in the photo? Juvenile/small specimens are next to impossible to identify down to species level. Size of mature specimens can be very useful.

6. Is the fish domestically bred? Most domestic fish are either accurately identified or at least have a commercial name that can be cross referenced.

7. Is the fish wildcaught? Wildcaught fish usually show diagnostic features better because they haven't been altererd by line breeding. If it is wildcaught, can you find out which country/region that the fish came from? If one can eliminate species from some areas, it helps to narrow down the possible species that it can be. Were there any contaminant (by-catch) fish in the shipment? Sometimes these 'oddballs' can indicate the country of origin of the apisto.

I know it is next to impossible to get all of this data, but if one can provide more information than just a photo, it can really help to identify your fish."

It wouldn't hurt to put this in a 'sticky' at the top of the page. The question is: will people read it first?

 

[OHR]

Thanks again for your time Mr Wise.
Have A. Wangenflecken been bred commercially in europe?, the answer to this can help me establish if they are of wild or domestic origin.

The next meeting at the local aquarium club should be really interesting:wink:
With any luck the fishkeeper from the LFS is there and I have a lot of questions about these shipments and also about prior shipments.

I might also be able to find some of the other buyers of this and the other species of apistos.

Now I have some peat in a bucket that needs to be taken out.
It will be very interesting to see if hightening the PH value and hardness will increase growth, as slow growth was the clue that made me wonder.

PS Mike Wise: If you are going collecting with Tom C this fall be sure to mention the lack of female bitaeniatas in Norway these days :wink:

 

[OHR]

That really was a long way from Peru!

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, A. sp. Wangenflecken is reproduced in Europe much more than in North America. TomC had them back in 2005 when I visited his home. The species is also imported from Belém, Brazil several times each year. Although not common, it is not a rare import.

Tom brought back some beautiful orange/red A. bitaeniata from the Río Tigre last year. Mine are breeding like flies! Maybe he has extra females. You should as him (he doesn't bite:tongue: - at least he never bit me!:biggrin.

 

[Tom C]

Yes, A. sp. Wangenflecken is reproduced in Europe much more than in North America. TomC had them back in 2005 when I visited his home. .......

Sorry Mike, it was A. cf. caetei "Rotwangen" I had back in 2005. This was a special fish; the lower pH and higher temperatures; the more females they produced!

Coming home last October, I realized I had too many fish here. The A. bitaeniata forms (Shishita, Shushupe, Haway, Rio Tigre and Rio Nanay) were quite popular, so I gave them all away.
I think the lack of females here is a myth; two weeks ago I was asked if I had a spare A. bitaeniata male, by someone who has lots of youngsters; all females.

In just a month and a half it's time for the Amazon again. I might bring back some A. bitaeniata this time too, it depends of course of what else we will find.....

 

[Microman]

In just a month and a half it's time for the Amazon again. I might bring back some A. bitaeniata this time too, it depends of course of what else we will find.....

And of course just how much we can fit in our boxes....
Cant wait Tom, children and sweetshops spring to mind.
Mark...

 

[RAF]

Tom... not very long ago I was looking at an exporter list form Peru and was tempted in ordering some Ap. bitaeniata... but then I thought, if these populations are as acorrect as the species I ordered before, I'll probably end up with everything but what I ordered.

Good luck to you both in your trip... I'll be waiting for the report and photos.

And if you need more boxes, I'll be glad to send some to you in Peru, I'll even write on them the return adress, just to save you the trouble... eheheheh