taeniatus colour variation?

[chilligirl]

Hi, I picked these two little beauties up at my lfs yesterday. I'm quite pleased with them, as they're very pretty, and are pairing up already. They're F1s, parents were wild caught and special ordered for a customer - these two are from his first batch of fry off the parents, the second batch is almost ready to come in for sale.

Anyway, what colour variation would this be considered? The lfs guy wrote "ndome - niger river" on the bag, which makes zero sense to me. Considering their parents were apparently caught in the Niger river, I'd guess these were Nigerian Yellows or Nigerian Greens - however, when I read up on those they're described as plain and not very colorful, which isn't the case with my two!

Here they are:

male

female (she's TINY - less than an inch long including caudal fin)

then just some shots of the pair and the other fishies

 

[aquaticclarity]

It's a Nigerian taeniatus...Pelvicachromis taeniatus. If pressed I'd call it the "yellow form". Regardless it's a nice find. Wild or close to wild P. taeniatus aren't as common as they used to be and getting some fresh genes in the hobby is great. Most of what are offered as P. taeniatus Nigerian-pick a color-are from European stock that hasn't been infused with new blood as often as many of us would like to see. The "domestic" stock have been bred for some incredible colors, but the over all longevity and often but not always the body shape have been compromised in the pursuit.

Grow up your great looking wish and start spreading some fry around. And put me on the list please!

Jeff

 

[georgedv]

The are lovely. So young and small, but yet so colorful.
I am curious about your substrate. What is it...where did you get it?
It really helps bring the colors out on the rams as well.


thanks

g

 

[ste12000]

Hi nice fish, How big is your tank?? I am just a bit concerned because cichlid communitys very rarely work out, there will be a lot of aggression when they start jostling for territory. I would provide plenty of hiding places and items to break the tank into distinct sepperate territorys.

 

[Azur]

Like the others have said it's a taeniatus, but beyond that I'm increasingly skeptical one can at all identify taeniatus without knowing where they were caught. If even then - you even have a capture locality in Nigeria for your fish, yet they have the striated anal fin which is said to be indicative of Cameroon taeniatus.
IMO that it's apparently impossible to identify the races of taeniatus by just looking at them throw considerable doubt on the entire concept that there are distinct races of taeniatus at all.

For what it's worth, your fish are exact copies of a quartet I have, and my fish were sold as Pelvicachromis taeniatus "Lobe" - which is ironic as Lobe is probably the only taeniatus-race one can confidently say they're not.

You'll find the female goes almost black, with purple belly and green and yellow highlights, when breeding time nears.

Wrt temperament, my experience is that they are very mild-mannered (ie accepting other taeniatus in their vicinity) except when preparing to breed, and even then they're no more aggressive than common kribs. Your rams, being aggressive-yet-poorly-armed fish, might still find them difficult to cope with, depending on the size of yur tank.

EDIT: Oh yes, another thing: they unfortunately share the tendency of kribs that if a breeding attempt, for any reason, fails, the male starts mercilessly attacking the female.

 

[tjudy]

I do not think that they are Nigerian. There is too much color in the anal fin of the male. Nigerian form males I have gotten have clear blue anal fins. A Nigerian fish will also have a clear black margin on the lower half of the caudal fin, which your fish does not have. The red cheek of both your male and the female are bordered with irridescent bars. My guess is a type from Cameroon north of the Sanaga River... so a Moliwe or Ndonga type. Based upon the strong red mark on the cheek, and the name you were told, I would lean towards Ndonga.

Regardless, they are beautiful fish. And as Azur says, without knowing the location it is hard to say. However, I disagree that there are not distinct forms of P. taeniatus. The work is curently being done to settle that issue, and the scientist doing to work is confident that the species will be split into two or three different species. He estimates an early 2009 completion for that project (he is also doing Hemichromis at the same time... workaholic!).

 

[Azur]

I disagree that there are not distinct forms of P. taeniatus. The work is curently being done to settle that issue, and the scientist doing to work is confident that the species will be split into two or three different species. He estimates an early 2009 completion for that project (he is also doing Hemichromis at the same time... workaholic!).

That'd be Anton Lamboj?
Out of the taeniatus I've seen, I'd say two species: Nigerian colorless vs the rest.

As for Hemichromis, I wish him the best of luck - a revision is certainly long overdue, and sorely needed.

 

[chilligirl]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. In regards to substrate, it's sand, with lots of river rock (various sizes) and some slate.

Tank size is 90g, and I made sure to have more territories than fish. There are three "caves" from pots, a couple sites on the one piece of driftwood, another spot created with slate, plus various other hidey-holes in plants and decor. I plan to eventually add in another chunk of driftwood.

I'm at work, so can't post a tank pic now, but will later

 

[Azur]

Sounds like you're set.

By the way, here's my dominant male, for comparison:

Unfortunately I have no picture of my female, because, well, I disturbed them while breeding and she's no longer allowed to show herself - the male attacks instantly.

 

[tjudy]

The third is the population from Wouri, which is distinct in many ways.

 

[chilligirl]

I'll have to ask the lfs fellow again where the fish are from. He stated the village they were caught outside of - I believe it started with an "I", but all he wrote on the bag, when I asked him to write where they were from, was "ndowe - niger river".

Regardless of where they're from, I am very pleased with them - I think they're tied with my GBR for my favourite fish in that tank. I'm a bit torn on whether I want them to breed or not...It would be neat to have fry, and they are, from what I can tell, and what others have said, lovely specimens. On the other hand, I've heard that they can be absolute terrors in the tank once they've spawned, and I don't have a breeder tank to seperate them out to. I could pick up a 10 gallon and a sponge filter for cheap enough but...

Anyway, time will tell.

Here are a few pics of the tank, to give y'all an idea of the setup. I'm running two filters - a Rena XP3 and a Penguin Biowheel 350. Tank is set at 80 degrees, pH is 7.2 (planning to add some peat to the filter in the near future to soften the water a bit further and bring the pH down a little). It's still a work in progress - the tank's only been set up for a month! I seeded it from my established goldfish tank - geez, that beats cycling it!!! I plan to upgrade the lighting, add some live plants, some floating plants, maybe a tall piece of driftwood, etc.

Front view

from the left side

from the right

and just a close up of the section I set up on the right the day I added my taeniatus. Not sure if I'll leave it this way, it might be a pain to keep clean, but the fish (especially the yoyo loaches) seem to really like it and I think it looks nice.

 

[chilligirl]

bad news

Last night, the taetianus were fine. This afternoon, when I went to check on them, the male was dead, and the female was dying - she died about 5 minutes after I first spotted her. I've no idea what went wrong. Water params are perfect (ammonia 0, nitrites 0, trace nitrates, pH 7.2 but steady). All my other fish are fine. These two seemed completely healthy - were eating well and behaving normally. Even while she was passing, the female's color was bright - she wasn't faded out or anything. Neither fish had any visible sign of disease.

The male was wedged deep into a groove in the driftwood. I don't even know how he managed to get in there - there's no way his body drifted in there after he died - it took me like 10 minutes to get him out.

Since the water conditions are good, and all the other fish are fine (except my female GBR who has a wound, which is slowly healing), I suspect they must have been killed by a tankmate. Their fins weren't especially tattered or anything though, so I'm not sure.

If I had to venture a guess as to which of their tankmates was the culprit, I'd say my nannacara pair did it. My male nannacara is the only fish who's ever stood up to my female ram, and both he and the female have been busy cleaning a few sites around the tank...

Regardless, I'm super disappointed The pair I'd picked out were the nicest in the tank at the lfs. I think I'll wait until the next batch (they said there was a second batch of fry coming in soon) and buy a few of those to replace the ones I lost...

 

[ste12000]

Hi nice fish, How big is your tank?? I am just a bit concerned because cichlid communitys very rarely work out, there will be a lot of aggression when they start jostling for territory. I would provide plenty of hiding places and items to break the tank into distinct sepperate territorys.

I really hate to say it Chilligirl but i did warn you.. Cichlids hold far bigger territorys in the wild than we can provide in our tanks. Even in a 90g, there is not enough room for four species of Dwarf cichlid, as you have found out!!
Also, i noticed that you are fully stocked but have only been set up a month? This is a classic sign of new tank syndrome, i would buy a different batch of test kits and carefully check your water, some types are not accurate at all.
I dont want to be to hard on you as you have just lost a lovely pair of fish, but please re-read some books and internet articles about cichlid tanks and new tank syndrome..

 

[Azur]

Sorry, I don't buy that they were suddenly just killed (and by Nannacara, no less). If that had been the case, you'd have first seen chasing, then you would have had your taeniatus hide behind pumps or plants or anything, probably close to the surface where the Nannacara wont follow, and showing clear signs of severe distress.
If you let things go on, they'd have had frayed fins and then, eventually, you'd find them dead in a tight corner somewhere. The process takes days or weeks, it's not an overnight thing.

Far more likely is that your fish were either sick or that your water quality is poor. The aquarium looks freshly started, or freshly cleaned, and unless I'm mistaken those are plastic plants, right? If that is the case, you no doubt have elevated nitrite levels, and you'll see more fish dying in the near future.

How have you measured nitrite/ammonia? If you're using stick or paper tests, then you can safely assume that your readings are wrong - stick/paper tests are so inaccurate as to be worse than not measuring at all.

@ste: her aquarium is a 90 gallon (340 liters). It is, IMO, ridiculous to suggest that is too small for a pair of Nannochromis and a pair of taeniatus to coexist. We're not talking large or aggressive cichlids here, but relatively peaceful dwarfs.

 

[chilligirl]

okay, I'll try to answer everything here:

Tank is new, but I'm not new to fishkeeping (although still lots to learn). I use to work in lfs years ago, and had a 20g dwarf cichlid tank back then. Recently (a year ago) got back into fish, starting with goldies for the first time.

The tank was cycled a week after I set it up. I cycled it using fish and filter media from my established goldfish tank. During the cycling, I tested the water twice daily, and never had ammonia get above 0.1ppm. Nitrites never showed up in testable levels, just had nitrates show up on day 7, about 3 days after the ammonia had disappeared completely.

I've gradually upped my stock over the past 3 1/2 weeks, closely watching my water params.

I don't use strips or anything like that - my test kit is an API liquid test kit, and IS accurate.

The plants are silk. I'd like to put live plants in eventually, but I need to upgrade my lighting first.

I agree with you Azur on the bullying thing - my past experience is that you SEE signs of bullying far before you have a fish death. And their bodies weren't particularly beat up. The male had a minor tear in his caudal fin, and the female was missing a few scales in one spot behind her head, which could've been from being bitten.

I guess they must have been sick. Odd though, because, as I said, they looked and acted healthy. The tank they came from at the lfs was about a 10 gallon, with probably 15-20 of the taeniatus and a pair of juvenile (tiny!) keyhole cichlids. The keyholes were covered in ich, and there were a few taeniatus with some spots. Normally, I'd have passed on the whole tank, but the taeniatus had been in the store without issue for a month, and the store has all their water running through a UV filter. So, I picked out the two healthiest looking fish, making sure they had no ich, no torn fins, and were behaving normally.

My lfs pH is about 6.9, and mine is 7.2, so I did a nice, slow acclimation process. The fish never showed any signs of stress or disease, until I found them dead/dying.

I'm checking my other fish several times a day now, and have tested the water twice, and they all look fine, and the water params are perfect, as I said. If it was the water (which it wasn't), I would've lost a glowlight tetra or one of my GBR before the taeniatus - they're not nearly as hardy, imo.

 

[tjudy]

Terrible news. I am sorry to hear that.

One of the things to condiser is gill flukes.... naysayers bear with me a moment please...

Gill flukes are far more common than most aquarists believe. One of the indicators of fluke-caused death is a sudden expiration with bright, almost vibrant, coloration and no apparent other signs of sickness. Plus, flukes are one of those parasites that fish can tolerate in certain numbers, but quickly succumb to them once the fluke population passes a certain level. The last clue is the male wedging himself into a tight crevice. He was probably trying to 'scratch' himself and got wedged in.

Flukes can be species specific, though that is far mroe common with flukes that arrive on wild fish. It is not uncommon, however, for one species in a tank to succumb to a fluke infection when others do not. That does nto mean that the other fish in the tank do not have flukes.

I am not saying that your kribs had flukes, but it is a possibility. Only a biopsy of their gills and a microscope will say for sure. You also mentioned that there were some fish in the tank at teh store that had ich. Ich is an opportunistic parasite that attacks stressed fish. Unstressed fish rarely have a problem with it. When there are fish in a tank with ich, then there is usually something other than ich stressing them out.

 

[chilligirl]

gaaaah! I'm losing fish It's either flukes, or it's the new decor I added to the tank on Friday - some naturally polished river rock. I lost my male GBR yesterday, my female is looking rough, and one of my a. steel blue is on his way out

Before my male GBR died, he turned VERY dark, and my female is quite dark today, which makes me think flukes. However, the speed it's moving through my fish makes me question that.

Water params (measurable ones - pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates) are still perfect and steady, but my fish are dropping like flies

I started treatment with metronidozole last night. I'm pulling out the river rock this morning.

I am inclined to think this is flukes though, because when I stopped at the lfs to pick up meds, half the fish in the tank mine came from were dead I know it's my own stupid fault for not quarantining (the heater in my QT tank is out and I figured since I'd watched these fish in the lfs tank for over a month they'd be fine - wrong!), but geez. And they're still for sale!!!

Please cross your fingers that this doesn't wipe out my whole tank. I'm soooo disappointed and upset right now. And I feel awful for my poor fish!

 

[ste12000]

@ste: her aquarium is a 90 gallon (340 liters). It is, IMO, ridiculous to suggest that is too small for a pair of Nannochromis and a pair of taeniatus to coexist. We're not talking large or aggressive cichlids here, but relatively peaceful dwarfs.

Azur, i have kept fish for many many years and have kept and Bred every single cichlid she has had in her tank(including the Angels). I know how aggressive Nannacara are, Females are probibly one of the most aggressive dwarf cichlids i have kept to date.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U-hzgi3GZ8s
A tank of 90 gallon is no-where near as big as the territory adult dwarf cichlids hold in the wild.
I quote Anton Lamboj talking about Taeniatus in 'the Cichlid fishes of western Africa' p174 top right hand side paragraph.
" Pairs hold territories approximately one or two square meters in area according to my own observations'
You can call me stupid all you want but you cannot dissagree with a scientist like Anton...A 90 gallon tank is not big enough for four seperate species of dwarf to share.
She has seen and bought the "pretty" fish in the shop without realising basic cichlid houskeeping.

I do not believe aggression is the issue anyway, i believe Chilligirl has made the classic beginners mistake of rushing the stocking of the new tank and not researched the types of species she is keeping...Dwarf cichlids cannot be crammed in like tetras or barbs.
It is basic fishkeeping wisdom that you cannot have a fully stocked tank within 1 month, if anyone dissagrees with that then they really do-not know their stuff. Try typing the list of fish into any reputable fishkeeping forum and explain that you want to add them all within one month of setting up the tank, you will get told to take your time and stock slowly.

 

[ste12000]

Right Rant over...Sorry guys but i dont like being told im wrong when im not. I stated at the beginning of the thread that there were too many types of Cichlid in the same tank.
I would like to appologise to Chilligirl for the rant, i feel really sorry for you and your losses, i really hope that you can get over this, stick around and learn the art of keeping dwarf cichlids, they are trully facinating fish and i hope you stay on the forum and get the chance to see dwarf cichlids raising fry (this is one of the highlights of the hobby)
I blame your local fishshop, they should of realised that you were buying so many different types of dwarf cichlids for a new tank and offered some advice, sadly this kind of service is lacking in some shops as profit takes over from enjoying the fishes for what they are..I am sure that when your tank settles down then, i and other members can offer advice and guidence.

 

[chilligirl]

okay, I have to say, while I certainly appreciate constructive feedback, I don't appreciate being labelled a newbie and all but called stupid.

I am NOT new to fish keeping. This is NOT new tank syndrome. The fact that this tank has been running for a month has nothing to do with the deaths. If you'd taken the time to read my posts, you'd see that I AM experienced with fish, particularly with dwarf cichlids, and that I do have an inkling, at least, of what to do.

I did NOT buy my fish just because they were "pretty". I bought them because I've been in love with dwarf cichlids for over 10 years. I HAVE researched them, at great length compared to the average fish hobbyist (I have books and everything - yes I can read!), although certainly not to the same extent as most on this board, I'll admit, and, while I'd be considered a "beginner" by such serious hobbyists as those on this board, I am not considered a "beginner" to fishkeeping in general, or compared to the average lay person who's out there buying a fish.

In regards to seeing cichlids raising fry - I have. In the lfs where I worked, I maintained the display tank, which had a spawning pair of convicts. In my own tanks over the years, I've spawned cacatuoides, regular kribensis, and now GBR, although never to the point of free swimmers (eggs or wigglers were eaten).

I currently maintain 5 tanks - 3 of my own, and 2 at my workplace, and have been doing such for a year and a half.

My 90 Gallon, which IS new, was able to be stocked so quickly because I was prepared. I had put media into my goldfish tank, which houses three very messy fancies (heavy bioload) ahead of time. I then transferred it over to the new tank, and lightly stocked right away. My tank is not heavily stocked - my fish are all juveniles and small. The ammonia has NEVER gone above 0.1ppm, because I'm diligent. I'm not an idiot - I don't want to stress or burn my fish! I've upped my stocking, adding fish once per week, closely watching water params. The ammonia hasn't bumped up since it went down. I'm holding steady at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 2.5 nitrates.

You know, I don't often get offended on boards. I figure if I'm posting, well, I'm leaving it open to people to say what they want. However, I DO resent it when you (ste12000) write me off as some dumb newbie who buys a bunch of pretty fish without research and sticks it in an uncycled tank, just because I'm new to this board. At least read my post before responding with a bunch of ignorant nonsense.

Rant over. I've got to go pull my river rock, as well as my a. steel blue who's likely passed by now, do a massive water change to eliminate toxins if that's what the issue is (although I doubt it as, as I said, all the taeniatus in the lfs are dying too), and redose with the metronidozole.