What Baby Apisto is this?

[anewbie]

No idea, since I detest domestic A. cacatuoides, to me it's just a degenerate piece of inbred fish.

What's the different between a wild cacatuiodes and domestic cacatuiodes?

I had a pair of wild cacatuoides; they are actually nice looking but a bit depend on catch location as i believe there are different populations with different looks. This is from a sample of one of both species; the colouring on wc cacatuoides are more subtle (esp the red) and mine had a bit of blue shim on the dorsal fin - their ability to control colouring based on mood is greater; they were extremely territorial and aggressive; more so than the domestics; they appear healthier (though the male i had did bloat up while i was out of town). Their aggression level was shockingly high and they basically slaughtered anything that entered their territory. The aquarium i put them was not esp suitable both in stocking and water chemistry as they were an agreed upon substitute for the fish i had ordered. I would definitely buy them again but only if i had a 29 i could dedicate to them. I would not put them in a 20 long if i wanted top level schoolers as unlike (for example) the a. sp Blutkehl which ignore the schoolers that mix with them; the cockatoo would likely butcher them.

(while i found them very nice looking that is of course dependent on ones opinion; also they didn't show their best looks until a much later date). Generally speaking i have found cockatoo one of the more aggressive species (both domestic and wc); so far i have found htem much more aggressive to other species than - for example a. (cf?) ortegai.

 

[Garavar]

Update and Confusion:

So the incorrectly delivered Domestic A. Cacatuoides started hiding, I found him his hiding spot and he was breathing heavily. Couple of hours later had trouble swimming, body pointed straight up head facing north, tail facing south.

I moved him to quarantine tank but he died before I could try any treatment. For my own education any ideas what killed him?

He was in quarantine for 3 weeks, introduced to main tank, died 29 days later. All other fish have no symptoms and I don't know if I should medicate since I don't know what happened to him.

 

[anewbie]

Update and Confusion:

So the incorrectly delivered Domestic A. Cacatuoides started hiding, I found him his hiding spot and he was breathing heavily. Couple of hours later had trouble swimming, body pointed straight up head facing north, tail facing south.

I moved him to quarantine tank but he died before I could try any treatment. For my own education any ideas what killed him?

He was in quarantine for 3 weeks, introduced to main tank, died 29 days later. All other fish have no symptoms and I don't know if I should medicate since I don't know what happened to him.

There is no way to know for sure; but if i remember correctly there were two male cockatoo (a. cacatuoides) in the tank. If this is correct the stronger male would have forced him to hiding depriving him of food and generally causing a lot of stress. Death would eventually follow. My personal experience has been that even without a female two male cockatoo can be quite aggressive towards each other as mentioned previously in this thread.

If you only had one cockatoo i have no clue - could have been temperature, water chemistry, general health of the domestic fish, other fishes in the tank.

 

[Garavar]

There is no way to know for sure; but if i remember correctly there were two male cockatoo (a. cacatuoides) in the tank. If this is correct the stronger male would have forced him to hiding depriving him of food and generally causing a lot of stress. Death would eventually follow. My personal experience has been that even without a female two male cockatoo can be quite aggressive towards each other as mentioned previously in this thread.

If you only had one cockatoo i have no clue - could have been temperature, water chemistry, general health of the domestic fish, other fishes in the tank.

He was alone no other Apistogrammas in the tank. He was also always out in the open and eating. No problem with any other fish, unless someone attacked him at night or something and I didn't see.

I checked the water often everything appeared fine, water changes, stable temperature etc. I am really confused.

 

[MacZ]

If you had researched here on the forum in the Health subforum, you might have found at least part of the explanation.

What you've been observing is a syndrome many of us have seen before.

When a dwarf cichlid is overly stressed, either socially (which in this case is out) or environmentally (any parameters from water chemistry to food), they begin to deteriorate quickly, showing the typical symptoms:

- heavy breathing
- loss of appetite
- reclusiveness
- weight loss
- loss of colour
and once they enter critical stage:
- loss of buoyancy
- loss of balance

This has shown over and over to be not reversable without measures to optimise the tank and holding conditions. People had success treating this with antibiotics but without better holding conditions it comes back and the fish often likely takes permanent damage, e.g. a damaged swim bladder or gills.

Domestic fish of mediocre quality (bad genetics, bad health from the start) like your domestic A. cacatuoides are exceptionally prone to this, but it hits all kinds of dwarf cichlids from wild caught to domestic and all genera be it Apistogramma, Mikrogeophagus or any of the others.

What I advise for future attempts at keeping Apistos:
- stay clear of domestic fish
- stay clear of that particular seller
- taylor the tank exactly to the needs of the fish, water, substrate, decorations, food
- no community tanks!

In your case specifically I suspect the latter to be the problem: Apistogramma are no community tank material in most cases. Althrough you did one thing very right: You got only one per tank. Very important to do so IF one choses to keep them in a community.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I moved him to quarantine tank but he died before I could try any treatment. For my own education any ideas what killed him?

He was in quarantine for 3 weeks, introduced to main tank, died 29 days later. All other fish have no symptoms and I don't know if I should medicate since I don't know what happened to him.

I'm sorry to hear that, but it may be nothing to do with you and just be that they are very inbred and unhealthy fish now, a bit like Rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi).

cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

If you are located in usa and willing to go with agassizii instead of cockatoo i can recommend a seller i've dealt with before. He breeds them himself and they are reasonably robust but i also have to warn you that as a genus i've found apsitogramma more sensitive to water quality than for example swordtails or otto. They have little tolerance for 'dirty' water or excessively hard water. I have also found agassizii a bit moody in a community environment but generally tolerant of non-cichilds as a single male. The fish itself won't be expensive but of course there will be the cost of shipping.

 

[Garavar]

If you had researched here on the forum in the Health subforum, you might have found at least part of the explanation.

What you've been observing is a syndrome many of us have seen before.

When a dwarf cichlid is overly stressed, either socially (which in this case is out) or environmentally (any parameters from water chemistry to food), they begin to deteriorate quickly, showing the typical symptoms:

- heavy breathing
- loss of appetite
- reclusiveness
- weight loss
- loss of colour
and once they enter critical stage:
- loss of buoyancy
- loss of balance

This has shown over and over to be not reversable without measures to optimise the tank and holding conditions. People had success treating this with antibiotics but without better holding conditions it comes back and the fish often likely takes permanent damage, e.g. a damaged swim bladder or gills.

Domestic fish of mediocre quality (bad genetics, bad health from the start) like your domestic A. cacatuoides are exceptionally prone to this, but it hits all kinds of dwarf cichlids from wild caught to domestic and all genera be it Apistogramma, Mikrogeophagus or any of the others.

What I advise for future attempts at keeping Apistos:
- stay clear of domestic fish
- stay clear of that particular seller
- taylor the tank exactly to the needs of the fish, water, substrate, decorations, food
- no community tanks!

In your case specifically I suspect the latter to be the problem: Apistogramma are no community tank material in most cases. Althrough you did one thing very right: You got only one per tank. Very important to do so IF one choses to keep them in a community.

I didn't even realize there was a healthcare subform. I ran a few searches and all I saw was discussions about parasites and treatment before introduction into community. So I thought maybe I screwed up by not medicating him in quarantine before putting him in main.

I don't plan on getting another for community tank but as I mentioned, I am still completely baffled by his passing considering aside from being in a community tank I had checked off all the other right boxes. So I guess we will chalk it up to genetics and his domestic status.

 

[anewbie]

I didn't even realize there was a healthcare subform. I ran a few searches and all I saw was discussions about parasites and treatment before introduction into community. So I thought maybe I screwed up by not medicating him in quarantine before putting him in main.

I don't plan on getting another for community tank but as I mentioned, I am still completely baffled by his passing considering aside from being in a community tank I had checked off all the other right boxes. So I guess we will chalk it up to genetics and his domestic status.

You will never know for sure - i quickly scan the thread but don't see your kh/gh for you water - unless you are a vet and willing to examine the fish both externally and internally it is hard to say why it died. Stress can lead to making the fish more prone to issue but for example it could have been shock between your water and the sellers, it could have been damaged in shipping (fishes can go a long time before showing visual distress), it could have been bacteria - some fishes have bacteria that don't harm them that will harm other fishes, it could have been temperature.

As a simple example if your seller had very soft acidic water - kh 0.1 gh 3 and your water is kh 10 and gh 20 the fish will likely have a difficult time adapting. Of course the above values are made up but still happens.

I'm not saying it has anything to do with water hardness or softness but i see several comments that the water is 'fine' but 'fine' is never defined.

As for the bacteria example i've had that happen to me a few times where a fish is immune to a bacteria and is never harmed by it but it still manages to cause other fishes to die. It was quite maddening since simple qt'ing would not discover the issue - though i've heard it is quite common when mixing discus from asia and germany (both domestics).

 

[Garavar]

You will never know for sure - i quickly scan the thread but don't see your kh/gh for you water - unless you are a vet and willing to examine the fish both externally and internally it is hard to say why it died. Stress can lead to making the fish more prone to issue but for example it could have been shock between your water and the sellers, it could have been damaged in shipping (fishes can go a long time before showing visual distress), it could have been bacteria - some fishes have bacteria that don't harm them that will harm other fishes, it could have been temperature.

As a simple example if your seller had very soft acidic water - kh 0.1 gh 3 and your water is kh 10 and gh 20 the fish will likely have a difficult time adapting. Of course the above values are made up but still happens.

I'm not saying it has anything to do with water hardness or softness but i see several comments that the water is 'fine' but 'fine' is never defined.

As for the bacteria example i've had that happen to me a few times where a fish is immune to a bacteria and is never harmed by it but it still manages to cause other fishes to die. It was quite maddening since simple qt'ing would not discover the issue - though i've heard it is quite common when mixing discus from asia and germany (both domestics).

If I could find someone to do a necropsy I would definitely pay for it every time. I always want to know what the cause of issue was regardless if I planned to keep the same fish or not.

 

[MacZ]

If I could find someone to do a necropsy I would definitely pay for it every time. I always want to know what the cause of issue was regardless if I planned to keep the same fish or not.

A futile endeavour I think, as the phenomenon is observed world-wide and everything is pointing to it being a collapse of the immune system, followed by a systemic bacterial infection, followed by organ failures and death.
You see it all the time only affecting a single dwarf cichlid, while the rest of the fish in the tank are not even affected when eating the carrion.

So... safe your money.