Id species (sold as Apistogramma sp. "Ipiranga")

[anewbie]

I ordered 2 pairs to replace the a. ortega that turned out to be hybrid but received 8 fishes. My understanding is they would be a purple fish - but these aren't that purple. They are approx 1.5 to 2 inches long; show amazingly little aggression with an occasional flare. I know i have at least one male and at least 1 female but not sure of the split. My biggest concern is if they are not iprianga i need to reduce the temp (which i have at 81 right now); these photo are not great but hopefully they are good enough. The fishes are not that shy but show a lot of constant movement - the biggest surprise is what appears to be nearly 0 aggression. The tank does have a lot of layers of driftwood and rock for nooks and crannies if needed:

 

[Mike Wise]

I can't honestly say based on these photos. They probably are since only Albertino collected & exported the fish, similar to the other fish your supplier sells. You seem to lack trust in the seller and his identifications. Why?

 

[anewbie]

I can't honestly say based on these photos. They probably are since only Albertino collected & exported the fish, similar to the other fish your supplier sells. You seem to lack trust in the seller and his identifications. Why?

I don't distrust him but he is selling 8 species and mix up do happen. Since these require a different temp than some of the other species i figure it couldn't hurt to get confirmation since they looked slightly different than the pictures i saw of ipiranga.

Also is it normal for them to show a lack of aggression at the 1.5 to 2.0 inch size? Er what i'm trying to ask is it likely aggression will pick up and i should be thinking about a place for the extras that were sent or is this a relatively passive species.

 

[anewbie]

I can't honestly say based on these photos. They probably are since only Albertino collected & exported the fish, similar to the other fish your supplier sells. You seem to lack trust in the seller and his identifications. Why?

Mike let me give you a better answer; the fish i purchased as a. ortegai turned out to be a hybrid; the fish i purchased as a. lineta turned out to be a. sp Blutkehl; the fish i purchased as a. ladisalo is some species unlike any fish currently pictured as a. ladisalo (frank calls it the blue form but the details (to my naive eye) suggest it is a different species).

I feel more comfortable if someone more knowledgeable can make a positive id but if that is not appropriate i'll stop posting such threads.

 

[MacZ]

I feel more comfortable if someone more knowledgeable can make a positive id but if that is not appropriate i'll stop posting such threads.

That's going in the wrong direction and I doubt Mike is aiming at that. I'd keep it up.

 

[Frank Hättich]

the fish i purchased as a. ladisalo is some species unlike any fish currently pictured as a. ladisalo (frank calls it the blue form but the details (to my naive eye) suggest it is a different species).

I never called your Ladislao the "blue form". I just spoke of your "blue male" because you did so in posts #64 and #66 of the corresponding thread. I just tried to make sure that we talk about the same fish, nothing more. As I have said in that thread too, all Ladislao-forms can show a blue body. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to call one of them the "blue form".

 

[Mike Wise]

Mike let me give you a better answer; the fish i purchased as a. ortegai turned out to be a hybrid; the fish i purchased as a. lineta turned out to be a. sp Blutkehl; the fish i purchased as a. ladisalo is some species unlike any fish currently pictured as a. ladisalo (frank calls it the blue form but the details (to my naive eye) suggest it is a different species).

I feel more comfortable if someone more knowledgeable can make a positive id but if that is not appropriate i'll stop posting such threads.

The problem that I see is that suppliers (and exporters) are not taxonomists. They get the fish under a certain name and sell it as such. For example, your A. orteagai were not collected in the original habitat (middle Rio Ampiyacu), but most likely from "seeded" ponds near Pebas. Your supplier isn't told this and most likely doesn't even know that this occurs. The fish are sold to him as A. ortegai, so he sells them as ortegai. Your 'A. lineata' came from the same general location as some populations of Blutkehl. To the untrained (taxonomically) eye the only difference is the shape of the caudal fin. Since the fish received from collectors were small/young and didn't have lyretails, then to the exporter/supplier they were A. lineata and sold as such. Only after the fish matured and males developed lyretails was there an obvious difference. As for the Ladislao/wolli fish, I must admit being confused about which fish was which. Your posts kept switching between species. Your male Ladislao fish looks like my wolli, but I never said it was A. wolli. The female A. wolli I recognized as A. wolli immediately. The moral of all of this (the fist slide in most of my programs):

So how do you do this? Keep asking questions. Provide decent photographs. Read up on fish before you buy - and accept that most suppliers know little more about newer and rarer species than do you.

 

[anewbie]

I have one question are the black tick marks below the dorsal fine (I believe Tom has these label as dorsal marks) species identifying (Tom labels them dorsal spot) - i have circled them on this fish to show what i am talking about (the marks are easier to see when the picture is not enlarged to this degree).

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I am unsure why different species are being given the same name (specifically Ladisalo) but - and please correct me if i am mistaken - there seem to be enough difference between the fish to rule out them being the same species.
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I am very upset about the ortegai being hybrids - beyond that it is mostly so that i take correct care of the fish and i don't pass along bad names if i give away frys (i don't sell fishes) and my interest is not commercial but i do give them away when i know someone wants them.
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I understand what you are saying about the transition from exporter to importer and neither side may be esp knowledgeable about the various species though I also think the exporter in some cases are using names to increase the value of the fishes (like the fellow who was exporting g. albaios as g. winemilleri - my untrained eye was able to spot the difference but winemilleri do sell for 4x albaios).
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Anyway thanks - i'll try to get cleaner pictures. I will say the fishes I believe are ipiranga are amazingly lacking in aggression with 3 or 4 of them hanging out together and the ones that do show aggression use flaring to mark their territory rather than violence.
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I will also say as a final thought i never really expected to dwell into taxonomy of fishes nor do i feel i have the background or skill to do so - I mean i can observe behavior and spot cosmetic surface differences but it is that gap between cosmetic and genetic that i lack background.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I will also say as a final thought i never really expected to dwell into taxonomy of fishes nor do i feel i have the background or skill to do so - I mean i can observe behavior and spot cosmetic surface differences but it is that gap between cosmetic and genetic that i lack background.

The problem with identification is that Apistogramma spp. are part of the on-going <"Geophagine adaptive radiation">* and I'm guessing that forest clearance and climate change will lead to most species becoming extinct before they are ever scientifically described.

At some point in the future a taxonomist (or AI) will <"genetically finger-print"> a lot of the sad type specimens (preserved in their bottles of alcohol) and tell people what was present, but is no longer.

* Molecular phylogeny and evidence for an adaptive radiation of geophagine cichlids from South America (Perciformes: Labroidei)

cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

I don't have any updated pictures yet - these guys are not shy but move a lot. However i'm shocked how peaceful they are as a group. As mentioned I have 8 - i frequently see 6 - i presume the other two are alive. They are close to 2 inches but perhaps not sexually mature. I frequently see 4 or 5 together in close proxmity. There is one i almost never find in the group that stays on the other side of the aquarium.

I suppose if these age much slower than other species and get a lot larger things might change but if that is the case it is significantly later than other species i have (based on size). There is one in the group of 4 or 5 that will sometime flare the others will create a bit more distance from it but again i don't see any of the attack/hunt i've seen with other species - at this point they make the borelli i've had look aggressive. Will post another comment if i get some decent pictures or if their behavior change in a few months.

 

[anewbie]

One of the male has coloured up and one of the females appears to have a small territory but they remain extremely docile often forming groups. Is this a by-product of being mouth-brooders ?

 

[Mike Wise]

I doubt it. It is more likely that it is due to the tank size and layout of the aquarium.

 

[anewbie]

I doubt it. It is more likely that it is due to the tank size and layout of the aquarium.

It is the one i used for the ortegai so i don't know if the layout is good or bad with this comment

The aquarium is a decent size - 65 gallon 48 long 16 wide - well decent relative to some of the smaller species only setup.