Can I do apistos, and if so, which?

[magpie]

Hey there,

I've been working on a heavily-planted, 3-foot, 65 gallon tank. It has an Eheim 2217. I live in the Pacific NW where the water is very soft and has a pH generally around 6.6-6.8. I keep the temp 78-79-ish.
Here's a photo of the current setup.

Here's my current stocking:
- 6 Daisy's ricefish (Oryzias Woworae)
- 5 Purple pencilfish (Nannostomus rubrocaudatus) - would like to get 3 more when they are available.
- 10 Marbled hatchetfish
- 12 Spotted blue-eye rainbowfish (Pseudomugil Gertrudae)
- 6 Kuhli loaches
- 2 Stiphodon Elegans Gobies
- 3 Farlowella "twig" catfish

And I plan on getting 4-6 Laetacara araguaie "Buckelkopf" this week, to get an eventual pair to keep in the tank.

My husband hasn't really chosen any fish for the tank, as it's mostly my thing, but he loves Apistos.
So my questions are:
Could I put a pair of Apistos in this tank - with the Laetacara - and have everyone be happy?
If so, is there a specific species that would work best for this setup? Remember, this has a 3-ft footprint.
If you don't think Apistos would work, do you think something like Bolivian Rams or Dicrossus Maculatus would?

Here is my local apisto selection as of this week: http://wetspottropicalfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=66
Apistogramma, agassizi "Double Red", , 1.5", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cf. agassizi netz "Tefe Pearl Blue", , 1.5", $17.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, baenschi "Inka" , , 1.5", $24.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, bitaeniata , , 1.25", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, borelli "Blue", , 1.5", $10.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, borelli "Opal", , 1.25", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Breitbinden", , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides "Super Red", , 1.5", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides "Orange Flash", , 1.5", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides WILD Peru, , 1.25", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Nanay" WILD Peru, , 1.25", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Kelleri" "Diamond Face" NICE, , 1.75", $35.00 , Pairs Not
Apistogramma, diplotaenia, , .75", $50.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, elizabethae, , 1.25", $45.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, eruthrura "Rio Mamore", , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, eunotus "Blue Cheek" WILD Peru, , 1.5", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, hongsloi Form II, , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, mendezi, , 1", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, nijsseni, , 1.5", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, panduro , , 1", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Pebas", , 1"+, $20.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, pertensis, , 1", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Putumayo" "Algodon II", , 1.5", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, steindachneri, , 1.5-2", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, trifasciata, , 1.5", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Tucurui", , 1.25", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, viejita "Red Neck", , 1.5-2", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[magpie]

I guess I've heard that certain species have different temperaments. I think I need a fish that won't take guff from the Laetacaras, but yet won't harass them either. I also like fish that are owner interactive.

I could tell you which are my favorite appearance-wise, if that would help narrow it down. But I'd rather choose on which temperament would most likely be a success, and then looks after that.

 

[Mike Wise]

My first question is: why do you want to have a breeding/bonded pair of L. araguaia (or any cichlid for that matter) in a community tank? Successful breeding will probably not happen. If it does, then it won't be a peaceful tank for long. Don't get me wrong. I think all of the small Laetacara species are excellent community fish, but they are cichlids and behave like cichlids. Personally, for a community tank I would add 2 dwarf acaras (preferably the same sex) and then a couple of good looking male apistos of different species with different shapes. If you really want to try breeding in your tank, then for the safety of the loaches and gobies I would remove them. Bottom dwelling fish will be continually harassed by the breeding pair of cichlids. I hate to be a 'wet blanket'. YMMV

 

[magpie]

You're not being a wet blanket, you're just giving me your insight, which is exactly what I want. My goal is not to breed at this point. If I were to breed, I'd set up a smaller species tank, which at some point may be my goal, actually. I saw one lonely fry up in my floating plants and that did get me excited. (It had blue eyes so I'm assuming it was a Ricefish or Gertrudae.) For now, I just want a happy community with interesting fish.

I have not read about people keeping males together, only read about pairs, (or single fish) even in communities. I wonder why no one recommends that more often? I read that if you let a pair form, they'll be more likely to get along, and less likely to constantly harass each other/kill each other. Will the males not fight if there's no female to fight over? If that's the case, I'll look for that. The laetacara are harder to sex when young - should I still do 4-5 and try to choose males or should I just try to choose 2 larger guys in the LFS?

If your experience is that some males would get along and be a better match for the community, then that's what I'll go with. As I said, my first priority is happy healthy fish.

Thank you so much for your input!

 

[magpie]

So.... if I were to go with an all-male tank, I did a bit more research on how Apistos are divided up. I'm assuming I would choose species from different groups or complexes? I found this list, a concise list from much more comprehensive descriptions (ie the one written by you, Mike . Not sure if it's 100% accurate but maybe close?

Agassizii: agassizii gephyra parva pulchra sp. 'wilhelmi'
Atahualpa: atahualpa huascar
Bitaeniata: bitaeniata eremnopyge mendezi paucisquamis
Borellii: borellii
Brevis: brevis personata sp. 'breitbinden'
Cacatuoides: barlowi cacatuoides juruensis luelingi norberti sp. 'black chin' staecki
Diplotaenia: diplotaenia
Elizabethae: elizabethae
Gibbiceps: gibbiceps
Iniridae: iniridae uaupesi
Macmasteri: guttata hoignei hongsloi macmasteri viejita
Nijsseni: baenschi martini nijsseni panduro pantalone payaminonis rositae
Pertensis: angayuara inornata meinkeni pertensis sp. 'eartheater' velifera
Regani: acrensis caetei commbrae cruzi eunotus geisleri gossei inconspicua linkei moae ortmanni piauiense pleurotaenia regani resticulosa rubrolineata similis sp. 'papagei' taeniata tucurui urteagai
Rotpunkt: alacrina sp. 'rot punkt'
Steindachneri: hippolytae rupununi steindachneri
Trifasciata: erythrura trifasciata
Wapisana: sp. 'white seam' wapisana

If I followed that logic, I could pick from the following, then... (the males I find most attractive)
A. baenschi Inka,
A. bitaeniata or mendezi,
A. erythrura,
A. diplotaenica,
A. elizabethae

This says nothing about the personalities of the species, however - that I am having a harder time finding information on. If it just comes down to color and different shapes, I can let my husband pick from the list.

I'd still love more opinions!

 

[Mike Wise]

Most people want to pair cichlids because they want them to breed. My experience is that in a large tank like yours the males will display but not aggressively attack other males - if there are established territorial borders set up in the tank. No females mean no extreme drive to establish an extra large territory. Dwarf acaras can be hard to sex as young fish, so look for 2 prettier specimens of about the same size. They should remain compatable. As for apistos, some species are naturally more aggressive than others. I suggest that you get 2 males of about the same size, but with different body/fin shapes. There will be less aggression between different looking species. Which to pick is up to you. Don't ask me for suggestions; I keep mostly "ugly" apistos.

 

[magpie]

Thank you!

I'll have to look more closely at body and fin shapes and then I'll let my husband choose.

 

[magpie]

I keep reading conflicting opinions on whether or not I should be mixing apistos and laetacara in my tank.

Is it a bad idea?
Would another matchup work better? Say dicrossus maculatus? Or is that a worse idea?
Or should I just forget two cichlids and stick with one?

Just when I think I've got it set, I read more and waver.

 

[Mike Wise]

In a tank of your size there should be few problems mixing the 2 genera. Realize that Laetacara species tend to inhabit more open areas near cover, while apistos prefer covered areas near open spots. To me they compliment each other. Just realize that both fishes need a territory of their own - with distinct territorial boundaries. Therefore put some thought into the lay-out of the aquarium.

 

[magpie]

Thanks much Mike!

For the apistos, would my current caves built of rocks work or should I get a couple of those cichlid rocks with the holes in them? Do they really like/use those things?

Also, what about current preference for both the laetacara and apistos?

Would both like leaf litter or should I keep the leaf litter near the caves?

 

[magpie]

And one more question....

About how much space would define a territory (generally speaking)? I.e. if I rearrange, how much space between each potential spot should there be?

 

[Mike Wise]

Territory size and boundary formation have been discussed on this forum many times. Check with the search function.