Breeding Q's (I have eggs)

[seastar0328]

Breeding Q's update pics

Hi everyone! I am pseudo-new to this forum and am so glad I found it! I am glad to meet you all.

I thought I did all the research I needed but now that I finally found eggs I realize that all the reading and 1/2 hour conversations at the lfs aren't enough. I will ask the questions briefly then provide my tank specs.

(Apistogramma Cac's triple red)

1.) Eggs were laid on a day I was going to do a water change. Our water is extremely alkaline. I can get RO water tomorrow from the LFS....is this advisable to mess with the water right now as I know changes in pH and temp can alter the sex of the babies but I don't know if it does anything adverse? I did my last water change 2 days ago but the tank is small.

2.)Been watching them at first light every day and then almost all day and they must have laid them this afternoon while I was at the lfs. I cannot get a great look at the eggs from where they are laid but they don't look "fire engine red" yet. Does this take time? Did he not fertilize? How long do I give this? She seems to be leading him toward them then laying on her side but he doesn't get it maybe?

3.) Best food for babies I've heard some say microworms but then they say they are too big for new fry. Some have told me baby brine shrimp. I know they must eat something live and small. I have been trying to breed these guys forever and now that it's happened I'm so excited.

4.) Homemade sponge filter or will a store bought one have a lighter flow? I have a mini aquaclear in there now and my boyfriend has success with filter pads over his filter intake but I don't want to chance it.

My tank is a 5.5 gal tank set up for just this. I have amazonian plants in it and some hornswort floating to diffuse light. I have several rocks covered in java moss that I can place in this tank. The temp is 82F. The pH is 6.8. Substrate is just play sand which is why I like to do more water changes. Filter is an aquaclear mini. I am not injecting co2 or fertilizing at this point. I don't want to put crap in the water that I do not need to. I will remove the male after I'm sure of fertilization. He will go in my big planted tank. The female will stay with the fry unless I see bad behavior. She will go into my 20L planted tank and the babies will grow up in the 5.5. From that point they will probably be moved to a 10 gallon and when they get to a larger point, my female and a different male will return to the 5.5 and the larger fry will be moved to the 20L to grow up a little. If a larger grow-out tank is needed at that point I will provide it but I am not sure yet. Is this a good plan? All the tanks mentioned are mature and ready and running. Thank you in advance, I realize it's a long post but I'm just so excited that this actually happened....and to think my trip for work out of town got cancelled today otherwise I would have been gone by now!

 

[fishgeek]

1. your pH of 6.8 is fine
your hardness maybe an issue though i definetly would not be messing with it now, best to assume that if the fish liked it enough to spawn then it is ok
check the hardness and lets us know if you can
cacatoides can tolerate harder more alkaline waters than most other apisto's
i would advise smaller more frequent water changes if the fry do hatch as water quality or fluctuations and lack of appropriate feed are probably the 2 biggest cause's of fry loss

2. the colour is more to do with what the fish have been eating than fertilisation of the egg's
what you are describing of female showing her belly will occur even after spawning

3 i think both the foods you have mentined will be appropriate
also the moss you have will probably contain some small live food

4 putting sponge over your existing filter inlet would probably be the best solution to stop the fry being drawn up the intake as that would still leave you with a mature filter in a small tank

best of luck
andrew

 

[nightowl1350]

Congrats on the spawn.

Microworms are fine and even BBS. The microworms are smaller and if you have a culture on the go it is easy as you don't have to time the hatching of the bbs. You can start adding the bbs after a few days, as well as microworms.

My Apisto C. eggs are an off white. So long as they are not solid white (not see through at all( they should be fertile. They may eat the eggs the first few tries, or may do great and parent raise for you...hope it is the latter.

 

[seastar0328]

Thanks for all the helpful information. I will post the specs later after I do all my tanks in the spare room. The eggs....well I am an idiot I think. I put them in a breeding net because I figured if they were infertile then she would spawn again sooner, then i thought what if they were fertile after reading this so I put them back. I looked at them in and out of the water. They look pinkish under water. Out of water (only for seconds) they look off-white. A few are bright white (2 or 3) the off white ones it is hard to say if they are see-through or not. This is the best description I can give. They look slightly pink underwater more towards the base (could be the clay pot reflecting) out of water they look opaque beige. Not sure if they are see through but there are dark (clear) tiny pin-tip spots on the tops of the eggs when viewed from the sides while they are standing underwater (tight oval shaped) but the rest of the egg is non see-through. I hope this helps. I had them out of the water for a few seconds at a time but they were still wet, is this ok? If so should I take a pic and post it? She went back to the eggs like they were never gone. Thank you again.

 

[seastar0328]

pics

Some eggs are totally white and some are pink...what do you think? fertile or infertile?

 

[fishgeek]

i would say the egg's look good to me with just the obvious white one as unfertilised

 

[seastar0328]

oh boy! I just checked now (7:15am) and there are def 2 eyes and a face facing me forward inside some of these eggs (though most are white). There are probably 15-20 of these which look like this. I definitely feel so much better about this first spawn. It is taking a mag glass to see these things but if they hatch and survive I am confident I will be able to see them. I am getting some brine shrimp to hatch today just in case...it can't hurt! I'm so excited!

Nightowl, you were right....mom was eating the eggs, I caught her yesterday. I had a breeder net so I placed the pot in it in the same tank. Any problems to expect with this type of technique? Is it more difficult to raise them this way? Can I do a water change right now with distilled or RO water or will that be really bad. It is a small tank so I am nervous about letting it go 3 days without disturbing it. Thank you again!

 

[nightowl1350]

I remove the eggs to a small tank (5g) when I hatch out eggs. I remove the eggs the same day they are layed and use tap water (no dechlorinator) and about 3 mls of hydrogen peroxide every 12 hours till they are wigglers. Any w/c I do on the tank I use aged water For yours I would take tank and dechlorinated water(1/2 and 1/2) if you move them now.

If you go with hatching in the parents tank make sure the holes are tiny as the wigglers will get through most small holes and have an airstone right under them to circulate water around them. At some point they will need a tank of their own so start cycling a sponge filter.


Hope that helps you and good luck with them.

 

[seastar0328]

Thank you again nightowl. I am fixing up my 20 gal to look more amazon right now to put the parents in it's been cycled and running for months but I just put off the aquascaping for awhile as I didn't think they'd do this this fast. I will leave the eggs in the tank in the net. I put an airstone in the net as well as covering it with hornswort and putting several clumps of java moss in the net for now. When the parents are out I will put the eggs back where they were with java moss covered rocks all around with the hornswort floating. What is the hydrogen peroxide for and how much should I use in the 5.5? Also I have a "dirty sponge" which has been used forever in all our tanks to cycle them then gets placed in the last filter it was used for the next time. Should I put it in the tank even if it's nasty looking for microscopic food?

Thank you for all your help. Even if these aren't viable, I will know better for next time. Experience must be the key as I have done a lot of reading on this and took 7 months to get here and still I feel unprepared anyway. Thank you so much.

 

[nightowl1350]

The hydrogen peroxide is only used when you hatch the eggs with out the pair in the tank as an anti fungal agent (some use meth blue, but I prefer peroxide) It prevents the white eggs from getting fungus on them.

All but the one white egg look viable If they are wigglers by the time you move the pair then don't worry about adding the peroxide. If the sponge filter is still running in a tank, just squeeze it well in tank water and add it when they are free swimmers.

Live plants will be great for the fry for food and protection. Before you relaease the wigglers or freeswimmers do a good clean up of the tank bottom. Use aged or declorinated water (same as you would for the pair) abd I do daily w/c on my fry and clean off the bottom.

Good luck with this spawn.

 

[seastar0328]

Thank you for all your advice. Unfortunately the eggs have fungused over this morning but now I know better for next time. I will definitely use the advice here for the next batch. Nightowl, it was great to hear advice from someone who has experiences with this and I hope you're around here next time I have questions!

Thank you again everyone!

 

[seastar0328]

second batch update and more q's

Alright, was gone for the week but before I left, I moved my pair into a larger 20L more heavily planted and with better water conditions. After several weeks of RO water changes I got my gH and kH lower and my tank is injected with CO2 so my pH stays between a 6.8 to a 6.5. I also lowered my temp from 81 to 78 and added peat to my filter. In addition to this they received live food as some type of midge decided to lay eggs in my tank and the little wormies were just too yummy.

As a result (and of course because I was not there) they spawned again. When I returned, I moved a rock and saw 4 eggs of a darker pink this time with several clear "casings" where the other eggs had been. Spawn was considerably larger this time. I did not remove the eggs. I am unsure if she ate them or if they hatched. She ate some of them last time either they were bad or she was just "new at the job" so to speak. I noticed some red/pink dots on the black sand under the shadow of the slate. I left them there. She has lost her yellow color but is still guarding the area with her life. It is hard to see what is going on back there.

Since I do not know much about spawning these guys and info on the web covers only the basics I am unsure of a few things.

1.) do the clear casings mean they hatched or were eaten?
2.) If they did hatch, how long until I see the babies?
3.) This is only their second spawn so I do not know if I should give them one more try and then remove the eggs if they do poorly again next time.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated. Also, if there are any comprehensive books out there which cover breeding of apistos or cacatuoides in general I would love to know which are the best so I may purchase them (and stop asking silly questions on forums! )

Thank you again in advance.

EDIT: also have snails...just read they will eat eggs....is this true?

 

[Mike Wise]

1.) do the clear casings mean they hatched or were eaten?

They hatched. Female apistos chew the larvae/wrigglers out of the egg shells, which often are left hanging on the ceiling of the cave.

2.) If they did hatch, how long until I see the babies?

You have already seen them! They were the little pink dots on your black gravel! If any survive your intrusion, they will appear in about 3 - 5 days.

3.) This is only their second spawn so I do not know if I should give them one more try and then remove the eggs if they do poorly again next time.

Definitely let them try 1 more time. The first time is practice, the second time you disturbed the female & I wouldn't be surprised if she ate the larvae before that "big predator" (you) got to them.