Apistogramma elizabethae question

[Eddiekay1010]

I received a group of young, wild, A. elizabethae about 5 months ago. All five I believe are males, there is one individual smaller than the rest that I thought might have been my lone female but it's tail has become lyre tailed like the others, I'm doubtful it's a female. My question is, if I am able to get more in the future, is their distribution limited to a small area in the wild. I wouldn't want to add the new ones to my group i have now to prevent any possible hybridization if they come from a large area, like cacatuoides for example.

 

[MacZ]

Apistogramma elizabethae – A208 (A208) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Apistogramma elizabethae summary page

www.fishbase.de

Two of the most reliable recources are pretty clear about the range.

I know there is a variant known as "red belly", but as I haven't even seen those in RL I can not say whether those are a wild variant or a domestic form.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Apistogramma elizabethae – A208 (A208) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Apistogramma elizabethae summary page

www.fishbase.de

Two of the most reliable recources are pretty clear about the range.

I know there is a variant known as "red belly", but as I haven't even seen those in RL I can not say whether those are a wild variant or a domestic form.

Apistogramma elizabethae – A208 (A208) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Apistogramma elizabethae summary page

www.fishbase.de

Two of the most reliable recources are pretty clear about the range.

I know there is a variant known as "red belly", but as I haven't even seen those in RL I can not say whether those are a wild variant or a domestic form.

Thanks again for your advice, appreciate it!!!

 

[Tom C]

.... My question is, if I am able to get more in the future, is their distribution limited to a small area in the wild. I wouldn't want to add the new ones to my group i have now to prevent any possible hybridization if they come from a large area, like cacatuoides for example.

I really like your attitude! Not many people reflect on the fact that specimens "of the same species" caught far apart may actually be different species.

A. elizabethae seems to live in the region of the Negro, Uaupés and Içana. It is widely distributed there.
The type locality is a right side tributary of the lower Rio Uaupés near Trovão.

A. elizabethae has been found in São Gabriel da Cachoeira area, Rio Negro:
- Igarapé Vermelho
- Igarapé do Yawawira
- Igarapé near the village Nazaré
(Recorded occurrences here are dark spots in the map)

and in addition in the Rio Uaupés system:
- Affluent of Rio Uaupés at Trováo, ca. 20 km from mouth of Uaupés (Type locality)
- Elsässer found the orange-red strain in the Igarapé Corocoro, a tributary to the Igarapé de Panela (a few km upstream from Trovão).
- Lacerda and Valerio found the species in the Igarapé Comam/Cumán, a right side tributary of the Uaupés, about a kilometer downstream São Tomé.
- Römer found it in 1992/1994 in several locations in the Rio Tiquié.

and
- Lacerda sent Koslowski specimens collected at the mouth of the Rio Içana. They showed striking iridescence on the gill covers.
- Horst Linke collected it in the Rio Iςana drainage too. I don't know how far up from it's mouth he found them.

Although the total known distribution area is quite small compared to many other Apistogramma species, there may be 100 miles (160 km) or more between the extremes.
Sometimes you do not have to find specimens far apart either. Apistogramma cinilabra and Apistogramma sp. "Roter" looks completely identical, except that the former has a little pattern in the middle of the caudal fin.
They have for years been treated as one species, but now they are proven to be two different species (Römer, pers. com.). And there are less than 5 kilometers between their habitats!
I would not add any A. elizabethae from another import to an existing group, without being sure they were collected on the same spot... and that is usually impossible from commercial imports.
But I would understand if you couldn't resist a female from another import...

I know there is a variant known as "red belly", but as I haven't even seen those in RL I can not say whether those are a wild variant or a domestic form.

Besides the caudal fin shape, the coloration in males is quite variable. Iridescent scales can be present in great numbers, but also almost entirely missing.
The gill covers and/or abdomen can be yellow, orange-red, red or covered with a shiny blue area.
A red belly is not neccessarily the result of line breeding, but that is of course possible too.
This is a wild male A. elizabethae (with a few of his kids) I had many years ago, said to be from the Rio Iςana:

 

[Iormungand21]

I really like your attitude! Not many people reflect on the fact that specimens "of the same species" caught far apart may actually be different species.

A. elizabethae seems to live in the region of the Negro, Uaupés and Içana. It is widely distributed there.
The type locality is a right side tributary of the lower Rio Uaupés near Trovão.

A. elizabethae has been found in São Gabriel da Cachoeira area, Rio Negro:
- Igarapé Vermelho
- Igarapé do Yawawira
- Igarapé near the village Nazaré
(Recorded occurrences here are dark spots in the map)

and in addition in the Rio Uaupés system:
- Affluent of Rio Uaupés at Trováo, ca. 20 km from mouth of Uaupés (Type locality)
- Elsässer found the orange-red strain in the Igarapé Corocoro, a tributary to the Igarapé de Panela (a few km upstream from Trovão).
- Lacerda and Valerio found the species in the Igarapé Comam/Cumán, a right side tributary of the Uaupés, about a kilometer downstream São Tomé.
- Römer found it in 1992/1994 in several locations in the Rio Tiquié.

and
- Lacerda sent Koslowski specimens collected at the mouth of the Rio Içana. They showed striking iridescence on the gill covers.
- Horst Linke collected it in the Rio Iςana drainage too. I don't know how far up from it's mouth he found them.

Although the total known distribution area is quite small compared to many other Apistogramma species, there may be 100 miles (160 km) or more between the extremes.
Sometimes you do not have to find specimens far apart either. Apistogramma cinilabra and Apistogramma sp. "Roter" looks completely identical, except that the former has a little pattern in the middle of the caudal fin.
They have for years been treated as one species, but now they are proven to be two different species (Römer, pers. com.). And there are less than 5 kilometers between their habitats!
I would not add any A. elizabethae from another import to an existing group, without being sure they were collected on the same spot... and that is usually impossible from commercial imports.
But I would understand if you couldn't resist a female from another import...


Besides the caudal fin shape, the coloration in males is quite variable. Iridescent scales can be present in great numbers, but also almost entirely missing.
The gill covers and/or abdomen can be yellow, orange-red, red or covered with a shiny blue area.
A red belly is not neccessarily the result of line breeding, but that is of course possible too.
This is a wild male A. elizabethae (with a few of his kids) I had many years ago, said to be from the Rio Iςana:

You raise some good points about collection area and potential hybridization of locales. I am currently breeding A. Elizabathae (well, just raising babies as my breeding pair passed unfortunately, but I have 3 broods of variable size).

Is there a point where I should be concerned with inbreeding and related genetic issues if continuing this colony from one original pairing?

I have some concern finding a similar outside specimen as I dont know the specific origin of my fish, I have not seen any male Elizabethae that have the same coloring/pattern as my late breeder. The big thing I dont see in other examples is the high red content in the pelvic fins. All the specimens I can find photos of, even the really high red-belly examples, seem to have plain blueish pelvic fins.

 

[MacZ]

Besides the caudal fin shape, the coloration in males is quite variable. Iridescent scales can be present in great numbers, but also almost entirely missing.
The gill covers and/or abdomen can be yellow, orange-red, red or covered with a shiny blue area.
A red belly is not neccessarily the result of line breeding, but that is of course possible too.
This is a wild male A. elizabethae (with a few of his kids) I had many years ago, said to be from the Rio Iςana:

Thanks Tom! Considering that the specimens in the pictures of that variant that I have seen look pretty much identical to your picture. I can safely say those sold as "red belly" are likely that variant.

Is there a point where I should be concerned with inbreeding and related genetic issues if continuing this colony from one original pairing?

Can't speak exactly for Apistogramma, but having bred Rift Lake cichlids for years:
You can usually interbreed the offspring in F1-F5 without problems, but then better introduce new blood from a separate breeder population to the F5-generation.

I have some concern finding a similar outside specimen as I dont know the specific origin of my fish

If you can't pinpoint the origin location you have two options. Either you stop that line from breeding further (would be a shame, honestly), or select as-close-as-possible specimens to cross in and be content with keeping the species, quitting classification of variant or subspecies. That would mean, though, that your line is burned for serious conservation-breeding and whenever you give away or sell specimens you should make that clear to the people you give them to.

 

[ButtNekkid]

A. elizabethae seems to live in the region of the Negro, Uaupés and Içana. It is widely distributed there.
The type locality is a right side tributary of the lower Rio Uaupés near Trovão...

Thanks for the info, as always. Tom, if you ever consider leaving this site, I´m going to come down there and it won´t be pretty. Norway is not that far from Finland...

 

[MacZ]

Thanks for the info, as always. Tom, if you ever consider leaving this site, I´m going to come down there and it won´t be pretty. Norway is not that far from Finland...

I think all European members will be standing on his doorstep within a week. xD

 

[Eddiekay1010]

I really like your attitude! Not many people reflect on the fact that specimens "of the same species" caught far apart may actually be different species.

A. elizabethae seems to live in the region of the Negro, Uaupés and Içana. It is widely distributed there.
The type locality is a right side tributary of the lower Rio Uaupés near Trovão.

A. elizabethae has been found in São Gabriel da Cachoeira area, Rio Negro:
- Igarapé Vermelho
- Igarapé do Yawawira
- Igarapé near the village Nazaré
(Recorded occurrences here are dark spots in the map)

and in addition in the Rio Uaupés system:
- Affluent of Rio Uaupés at Trováo, ca. 20 km from mouth of Uaupés (Type locality)
- Elsässer found the orange-red strain in the Igarapé Corocoro, a tributary to the Igarapé de Panela (a few km upstream from Trovão).
- Lacerda and Valerio found the species in the Igarapé Comam/Cumán, a right side tributary of the Uaupés, about a kilometer downstream São Tomé.
- Römer found it in 1992/1994 in several locations in the Rio Tiquié.

and
- Lacerda sent Koslowski specimens collected at the mouth of the Rio Içana. They showed striking iridescence on the gill covers.
- Horst Linke collected it in the Rio Iςana drainage too. I don't know how far up from it's mouth he found them.

Although the total known distribution area is quite small compared to many other Apistogramma species, there may be 100 miles (160 km) or more between the extremes.
Sometimes you do not have to find specimens far apart either. Apistogramma cinilabra and Apistogramma sp. "Roter" looks completely identical, except that the former has a little pattern in the middle of the caudal fin.
They have for years been treated as one species, but now they are proven to be two different species (Römer, pers. com.). And there are less than 5 kilometers between their habitats!
I would not add any A. elizabethae from another import to an existing group, without being sure they were collected on the same spot... and that is usually impossible from commercial imports.
But I would understand if you couldn't resist a female from another import...


Besides the caudal fin shape, the coloration in males is quite variable. Iridescent scales can be present in great numbers, but also almost entirely missing.
The gill covers and/or abdomen can be yellow, orange-red, red or covered with a shiny blue area.
A red belly is not neccessarily the result of line breeding, but that is of course possible too.
This is a wild male A. elizabethae (with a few of his kids) I had many years ago, said to be from the Rio Iςana:

Thank you so much for that amazing information, I really appreciate the time you took with your reply. I will either place them in my large South American community tank or try to sell them to someone. I won't try to add a female, you confirmed my fears of adding one.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Thanks to everyone one who commented on this thread, great information from every one of them!!

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Hi, I have another dilemma. I originally got my wild elizabethae group at my local cichlid club rare fish auction and the fish that were in the auction were sourced from a local wholesaler. The some of the apistos were incorrectly labeled. I'm confident my group is elizabethae but someone who also bought at the club purchased a young group of A. piaroa. I saw then and I believe they are elizabethae possibly. They don't look like piaroa. Could I have your opinions. Since all the fish came from the same dealer, I'd feel confident adding a female to my group. His picks aren't the best, sorry.

 

[Frank Hättich]

The first two photos show neither elizabethae nor piaroa but rather a male of some uaupesi-like species. Which species is impossible to tell for sure without knowing the catch location. The third one might be a young male or a female of the same species but it could also be something different - the photo doesn't show enough diagnostic features.