A. cf. Ortega or just A. ortegai?

[Jonathan A]

At the LDS, listed as A. [cf] ortegai "pebas", but I wanted to get some more opinions.

 

[Jonathan A]

better angle of the female's peduncle.

the store is attempting to get them to spawn, ~69TDS no luck, but no luck (there's another male in the tank which isn't making it particularly easy for them haha)

 

[Hellfishguy]

They’re ortegai, no cf necessary. Pebas’ fins have a completely different coloration. My avatar is an ortegai.

 

[anewbie]

They look pretty similar to mine; which were sold as a. ortega pebas; teh colouration is less deep than i expected.

As for breeding one of my females shows indication that she laid eggs (have not seen frys or eggs as they are likely under a rock); she is deep yellow and extremely territorial and other than dashing out for a bite to eat spends her time under there - anyway water is ec ~30 which would be similar to a tds of 15.

 

[anewbie]

By the way wetspot is selling some tr a. cf ortega that have a totally different colorization.

 

[Mike Wise]

It is fairly easy to separate the two species by the shape of the caudal patch and the number of flank spots visible on breeding females:

A. ortegai: caudal patch appears like 2 spots approximately of the same size and connected together (∞); brooding females show only 2 flank spots.

A. cf. ortegai (Pebas): caudal patch is composed of 2 spots with the forward spot smaller in size than the rear one and connected together forming a wedge-shaped patch (◄); brooding females show 4, sometimes 3 or 5 flank spots.

Now comes the problem. These 2 species have been shipped together for decades and commonly are crossed in the hobby. Not only that, but native collectors have introduced A. ortegai to the Pebas area. A. ortegai is much more difficult to collect in its original habitat, which is farther up the Rio Ampiyacu and, at least in the past, a cocaine producing area protected by traffickers. The original description for A. ortegai lists pools in the area of Pebas as the type locality - and some of the paratypes in the original description are actually specimens of A. cf. ortegai (Pebas), not A. ortegai!

I hesitate to mention that A. cf. ortegai (Pebas) probably has another name altogether.

 

[anewbie]

It is fairly easy to separate the two species by the shape of the caudal patch and the number of flank spots visible on breeding females:

A. ortegai: caudal patch appears like 2 spots approximately of the same size and connected together (∞); brooding females show only 2 flank spots.

A. cf. ortegai (Pebas): caudal patch is composed of 2 spots with the forward spot smaller in size than the rear one and connected together forming a wedge-shaped patch (◄); brooding females show 4, sometimes 3 or 5 flank spots.

Now comes the problem. These 2 species have been shipped together for decades and commonly are crossed in the hobby. Not only that, but native collectors have introduced A. ortegai to the Pebas area. A. ortegai is much more difficult to collect in its original habitat, which is farther up the Rio Ampiyacu and, at least in the past, a cocaine producing area protected by traffickers. The original description for A. ortegai lists pools in the area of Pebas as the type locality - and some of the paratypes in the original description are actually specimens of A. cf. ortegai (Pebas), not A. ortegai!

I hesitate to mention that A. cf. ortegai (Pebas) probably has another name altogether.

One big difference between his female and mine is the ones i have show a pattern on the flank - my male:

(don't have the female sitting on my disk); but the body shows a pattern where as his is solid yellow. As for the caudal spot i try to find examples that show the difference - looking at his female i don't see two spots just one unless you are saying it is two spots merged together ?

 

[anewbie]

Ok - i went through the images on tom's website. None of the males look like mine but the female I think i understand what you mean by the bars. Mine don't really have short bars (tom - a. cf ortegai pebas morado)
but the 2nd female on toms' website (the same species mine is very similar - this is my brooding female):

(she was polite enough to come sit by the glass when i went down) - so from your description - she has 3 bars on the flank (the non brooding female have a horizontal line); i don't fully understand the caudal pattern you described but having 3 flank spots would suggest cf ortegai. However the poster female has no dots on the flank so i have no clue what that indicates)

 

[Mike Wise]

On most apisto females, including the ortegai-subcomplex species, the lateral band shrinks to 2 - 6 flank spots when brooding fry. Your female shows a pattern typically seen on A. cf. ortegai (Pebas). The caudal pattern is not typical, however. This might indicate that it is a cross between A. cf. ortegai (Pebas) and another sprecies. If they are domestic bred fish, it is not impossible.

As for the color of your male, I ignore it. I have photos of several different color forms including one specimen collected in 1999 and exported by the Panduros as A. sp. Dolly that is yellow like your male.

 

[anewbie]

On most apisto females, including the ortegai-subcomplex species, the lateral band shrinks to 2 - 6 flank spots when brooding fry. Your female shows a pattern typically seen on A. cf. ortegai (Pebas). The caudal pattern is not typical, however. This might indicate that it is a cross between A. cf. ortegai (Pebas) and another sprecies. If they are domestic bred fish, it is not impossible.

As for the color of your male, I ignore it. I have photos of several different color forms including one specimen collected in 1999 and exported by the Panduros as A. sp. Dolly that is yellow like your male.

They were labelled as wild caught; however you said that in the wild different species have been introduced to an area to make them easier to catch; couldn't that lead to hybrid in the wild ?

I might try to remove the male - to photo in a specieman container though i suspect he will be a pain to catch - i suspect he is less yellow than he appears in the photo due to tannis.

 

[Frank Hättich]

They were labelled as wild caught; however you said that in the wild different species have been introduced to an area to make them easier to catch; couldn't that lead to hybrid in the wild ?

I agree with Mike about your female and want to add that your male shows a lot of deformed scales which can be a sign for hybridisation too.

 

[anewbie]

I agree with Mike about your female and want to add that your male shows a lot of deformed scales which can be a sign for hybridisation too.

Ok - well these were sold as wc fishes; so does this mean the collectors have 'polluted' the populations by mixing species who are now cross breeding ?

 

[MacZ]

Ok - well these were sold as wc fishes; so does this mean the collectors have 'polluted' the populations by mixing species who are now cross breeding ?

There are such cases, as Mike once told here it happened with A. ortegai close to Pebas, I know of a Pterophyllum and Symphisodon case and one from Lake Malawi. It happens. It's awful, it's usually not reversable once it happened.

 

[anewbie]

I agree with Mike about your female and want to add that your male shows a lot of deformed scales which can be a sign for hybridisation too.

One other thing does this mean i should destroy them or at the very least not distribute the frys (i don't sell fishes but i do give them away from time to time).

 

[Frank Hättich]

at the very least not distribute the frys (i don't sell fishes but i do give them away from time to time).

I would not distribute the fry.

 

[anewbie]

I would not distribute the fry.

Ok. I guess i'll move the ortegai to the b. cupido aquarium; i presume the b. cupdio are different enough and large enough they won't be harmed by the ortegai. Mostly mentioning this in case you see an issue. The aquarium is a 180 (gallon) and largely understocked as the b. cupido are my most timid species but otherwise a fish i want to keep very healthy.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Ok. I guess i'll move the ortegai to the b. cupido aquarium; i presume the b. cupdio are different enough and large enough they won't be harmed by the ortegai. Mostly mentioning this in case you see an issue. The aquarium is a 180 (gallon) and largely understocked as the b. cupido are my most timid species but otherwise a fish i want to keep very healthy.

Sorry, but I have no experience in keeping Apistos with other cichlids.

 

[anewbie]

Sorry, but I have no experience in keeping Apistos with other cichlids.

Ok thanks. I have to figure out what to do with them. For the record they did breed and there are frys; rather large frys. I just don't want to dedicate the aquarium to them under these circumstances but i also don't want to put them down.

 

[MacZ]

With B. cupido should be fine. I'd keep them in a dedicated growout for the time being, then separate the sexes into two different tanks.

 

[anewbie]

With B. cupido should be fine. I'd keep them in a dedicated growout for the time being, then separate the sexes into two different tanks.

The parents? (I'm not going to raise the frys since i can't give them away due to being hybrids.