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A. cf. hoignei

Ekona

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5 Year Member
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453
A. cf. hoignei - FO import from Columbia. ~3.0 cm in length. Definitely in the hoignei sub-complex. Look D47ish. Any thoughts?
A. cf. hoignei Male 1.png
 

Frank Hättich

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5 Year Member
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598
Location
Germany
Yes it might be D47, but without knowing the catch location, it's impossible to be sure. If you can't find out the catch location, do you know with which other Apistos it maybe came?
 

Ekona

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5 Year Member
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453
Yes it might be D47, but without knowing the catch location, it's impossible to be sure. If you can't find out the catch location, do you know with which other Apistos it maybe came?
Thanks, I'll check with the importer. Good question.
 

Ekona

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
453
Yes it might be D47, but without knowing the catch location, it's impossible to be sure. If you can't find out the catch location, do you know with which other Apistos it maybe came?
I found that the importer of this fish has given it an additional label of "sp. Cucunuven". Is this a location name or does it lend any pertinent info on ID? Thanks
 

MacZ

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Location
Germany
"sp. Cucunuven"
That's a new one. Not a placename. I tried alternative versions that might make sense in spanish or portuguese like Cucu nueva or cucu novem, but in vain, no results. I suspect a misread handwriting and can't tell what name may actually be behind this. Wouldn't be the first time a handwritten note was misread and a "wrong" name entered the hobby as a trade name.
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
598
Location
Germany
I found that the importer of this fish has given it an additional label of "sp. Cucunuven". Is this a location name or does it lend any pertinent info on ID? Thanks
Fish with this name have appeared earlier this year on facebook. They couldn't be identified for sure either beyond being a hoignei-subcomplex species. But a Japanese guy ("Taka Apisto") said that he got a hoignei-subcomplex species with the name "Cunoben" and that it's supposed to be from Rio Inirida. If this is true, I'm quite sure that it is in fact D47. However, the quetion then remains whether the fish sold with the name "Cucunuven" are the same as the "Cunoben". Here is a photo of the Cunoben fish:

322399653_2098414773691868_3852704682780525981_n.jpg
 

MacZ

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3,119
Location
Germany
However, the quetion then remains whether the fish sold with the name "Cucunuven" are the same as the "Cunoben".
Linguistically this is very much possible. A speaker of English mishearing the word "cunoben" pronounced with a colombian accent could end up writing down "cucunuven". "Cunoben" referring to Apistogramma also mostly shows up in Japanese entries on the web, also misspelling "Rio Inirida" as "Rio Inilida" so we're in a multilanguage transliteration. I have to admit, this makes it almost impossible to track down the original word.
 

Ekona

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
453
Fish with this name have appeared earlier this year on facebook. They couldn't be identified for sure either beyond being a hoignei-subcomplex species. But a Japanese guy ("Taka Apisto") said that he got a hoignei-subcomplex species with the name "Cunoben" and that it's supposed to be from Rio Inirida. If this is true, I'm quite sure that it is in fact D47. However, the quetion then remains whether the fish sold with the name "Cucunuven" are the same as the "Cunoben". Here is a photo of the Cunoben fish:

View attachment 12790
Thank you Frank! Interesting discussion and I'd say that photo shows a fish very similar to the one imported by JD Aquatics.
 

MacZ

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3,119
Location
Germany
I have just gone through the locales along the river on googlemaps: There is a place named "Coconuevo" in the small town of El Coco where the Inirida flows into the Rio Guaviare. Very much a contestant for the original placename behind "cucunuven".
 

Frank Hättich

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5 Year Member
Messages
598
Location
Germany
I have just gone through the locales along the river on googlemaps: There is a place named "Coconuevo" in the small town of El Coco where the Inirida flows into the Rio Guaviare. Very much a contestant for the original placename behind "cucunuven".
Very good find! If this is in fact the catch location - which seems very reasonable to me - I have no doubts about A. sp. Cucunuven being the same species as D47.
 
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Ekona

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5 Year Member
Messages
453
Very good find! If this is in fact the catch location - which seems very reasonable to me - I have no doubts about A. sp. Cucunuven being the same species as D47.
MacZ and Frank Hattich - Indeed great find. Appreciate the Google search and conclusions. Here is the male growing out. Not as colorful as some of the pics of D47 from Japan, (they do seem to get the really nice specimens) but showing very similar morphology.

Here is the Google Map link.


From the image provided, are we seeing the mixing of a white water and black water river or is that a black water river with a deeper section and a shallower section with white sand showing. If a mixing of black and white waters, which would be which? Rio Inirida - Rio Guaviarie?
 

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Ekona

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5 Year Member
Messages
453
MacZ and Frank Hattich - Indeed great find. Appreciate the Google search and conclusions. Here is the male growing out. Not as colorful as some of the pics of D47 from Japan, (they do seem to get the really nice specimens) but showing very similar morphology.

Here is the Google Map link.


From the image provided, are we seeing the mixing of a white water and black water river or is that a black water river with a deeper section and a shallower section with white sand showing. If a mixing of black and white waters, which would be which? Rio Inirida - Rio Guaviarie?
So a further search would suggest that the Rio Guaviare is white or brown water and the Rio Inirida is blackwater.

"The Guaviare River is the result of the union of two rivers, the Guayabero and the Ariari, from there its name comes; this occurs very close to the town of Puerto Arturo. Its waters are brown or brown.
"Its main tributary is the Inírida river. To the northeast of the department of Guainía, it receives the black but clean waters of this tributary, close to the town of El Coco."
 

MacZ

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Messages
3,119
Location
Germany
From the image provided, are we seeing the mixing of a white water and black water river or is that a black water river with a deeper section and a shallower section with white sand showing. If a mixing of black and white waters, which would be which? Rio Inirida - Rio Guaviarie?
I'd be careful going by the colour of the water. The Rio Branco e.g. is traditionally considered whitewater but studies since the early 2010 have moved it to clearwater due to it's water chemistry. Dark water also doesn't automatically mean it's true blackwater and a murky trubid river can also just be stirred up from a rain shower. And might I add: Most small ornamental fish are not found in the main channels but in small tributaries, lagoons, morichales and flooded forests. Often the main rivers are whitewater due to the mix of waters from hundreds of kilometers of different tributaries. Best example is how the main channel of the Amazon is white for basically its whole run from source to mouth but has influx from all three water types. Even if the map below shows the Amazon basin and the Inirída is part of the Orinoco, this still applies.

Edit: But for your question: Looking at the satelite image the Inirída is the darker one. ;)

Here an illustration from
Junk, W.J., Piedade, M.T.F., Schöngart, J., Cohn-Haft, M., Adeney, J.M.
and Wittmann, FA., Classification of Major Naturally-Occurring
Amazonian Lowland Wetlands. Wetlands, 31, pp. 623–640, 2011


Hope it helps. Just posted it somewhere else yesterday.
Screenshot 2023-05-10 at 10-43-30 junk_wetlands_20112.pdf.png
 
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Ekona

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
453
I'd be careful going by the colour of the water. The Rio Branco e.g. is traditionally considered whitewater but studies since the early 2010 have moved it to clearwater due to it's water chemistry. Dark water also doesn't automatically mean it's true blackwater and a murky trubid river can also just be stirred up from a rain shower. And might I add: Most small ornamental fish are not found in the main channels but in small tributaries, lagoons, morichales and flooded forests. Often the main rivers are whitewater due to the mix of waters from hundreds of kilometers of different tributaries. Best example is how the main channel of the Amazon is white for basically its whole run from source to mouth but has influx from all three water types. Even if the map below shows the Amazon basin and the Inirída is part of the Orinoco, this still applies.

Edit: But for your question: Looking at the satelite image the Inirída is the darker one. ;)

Here an illustration from
Junk, W.J., Piedade, M.T.F., Schöngart, J., Cohn-Haft, M., Adeney, J.M.
and Wittmann, FA., Classification of Major Naturally-Occurring
Amazonian Lowland Wetlands. Wetlands, 31, pp. 623–640, 2011


Hope it helps. Just posted it somewhere else yesterday.
View attachment 12796
Thanks so much for your comments and clarifications. Great to have someone of you expertise and knowledge providing such excellent information to such questions! And yes, that is a very helpful chart showing variable water conditions beyond the usual categories. (Next time I drink a mocha latte, I'm not going to be able to un-see the Rio Purus! :))
 

MacZ

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Messages
3,119
Location
Germany
Biogeography has been a thing for me since school (so almost 25 years now), Biochemistry and waterchemistry since I got back into the hobby some years ago. Interestingly when it comes to the central fish here on the site I'm only on the intermediate level. I directed my interest more towards Dicrossus and other often overlooked genera.

(Next time I drink a mocha latte, I'm not going to be able to un-see the Rio Purus!)
Showed my partner a picture of the confluence of Negro and Amazon earlier, same reaction. :D
 

Ekona

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
453
Biogeography has been a thing for me since school (so almost 25 years now), Biochemistry and waterchemistry since I got back into the hobby some years ago. Interestingly when it comes to the central fish here on the site I'm only on the intermediate level. I directed my interest more towards Dicrossus and other often overlooked genera.


Showed my partner a picture of the confluence of Negro and Amazon earlier, same reaction. :D
 

Jacob D

New Member
Messages
5
So to revive an old thread, are we reasonably confident that the trade name coming out of Colombia sp cucunuven, or cunuven depending on who you talk to, is D47?
I recently got some more in. Not what I ordered but you know how exporters will end up sending you whatever they want in the end....*side rant*
here are some very poor pictures with fish just out of the box.
 

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Frank Hättich

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5 Year Member
Messages
598
Location
Germany
Your fish are cetrainly some form of A. cf. hoignei. Whether they are D47 depends on their catch location in fact being somewhere in the Coconuevo-area. Did they come with other fish from the lower Rio Inirida?
 

Jacob D

New Member
Messages
5
Your fish are cetrainly some form of A. cf. hoignei. Whether they are D47 depends on their catch location in fact being somewhere in the Coconuevo-area. Did they come with other fish from the lower Rio Inirida?
They came with A. lineata, A. macmasteri, and another possibly A. alacrina (I'll be getting some better pictures once they settle in to ask for a proper ID)
 

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