AnonymousUser
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Not strictly speaking dwarf cichlids so hope this is okay. Frank Hattich suggested I post, he indicated there's a couple of people with really good disease knowledge on here regularly. Have tried to include all the history / detail.
History: July 2023 went away for 3 weeks, came back to male with clear patch on his forehead and female bloated so treated with Myxazin then Octozin.
Before treatment after I’d been back a week she had breeding colours, tried to spawn but couldn’t - breeding tube was out then away twice before the third time she spawned. There was some red tissue sticking out with some eggs attached to it for a few days. It went back without my interference, I then treated. Seemed like a prolapse but wasn't as bad as now, was more like some eggs got stuck, she struggled to spawn.
Current situation: Went away again in April 2024 for 2.5 weeks, came back to the male with visible HITH and the female with what I thought may be the start of HITH. Did 70% water change. Treated with Octozin, to no effect. Did 40% change at the end of the treatment and 80% change 5 days later (Saturday 4 May) to try and get nitrates right down. The tank is used to large water changes.
Started treating with metroplex / focus / garlic guard in food on 26 April every other day as per instructions. Received metronidazole flakes on 1 May so tried to switch to them but fish did not respond well, both became lethargic and sat on the bottom, so I am continuing with metroplex in food every 2 days as per the instructions. In the meantime on Monday night / Tuesday morning (6/7 May) the female spawned and prolapsed, was pretty bad. Fasted her for 48 hours, she ate really well after that and seems her normal self displaying for the male, breeding colours not faded yet, nudging corys out her territory etc. After about 48/60 hours 50% ish of the prolapse had gone back with no interference, so I decided not to do an Epsom salt bath as she’s very skittish, and has jumped everytime I’ve tried to catch her in the past. I didn’t want her bashing into anything or to catch the prolapse in the net. I decided to remove the eggs before they got fungus, so I put the stone with her eggs on, and all the décor that surrounds them in a big quite tall Tupperware box inside the tank hoping she’d get in it and I could remove her for an Epsom salt bath and methylene blue bath, no such luck, smart little cookie who seems very suspicious of me! I’d turned the lights out for an hour and she’d settled next to the box, the male was not happy with what I’d done, so I decided to just remove the eggs and put the décor back not to stress them for too long. So now the eggs are gone he is back to chasing her. The males HITH is clearing up with the metroplex and large water changes. I did 40% yesterday (Thursday) and will do 75/80% on Saturday, hopefully can see if her HITH is going. I will try to get her to come to the front for food before then.
I have some videos in mp4 format but they won't upload.
I have a few questions/concerns:
1. The prolapse seems to have got darker and I cant tell if the white bit is just where it’s healing or if there’s a white mark/fungus that shouldn’t be there. As such I would like to do a methylene blue bath. The shape of the prolapse changes, goes back more and comes out more as she swims around, so it’s very hard to tell. When there were eggs I managed to get the videos but now she just goes to the back of the tank everytime I try to film/take photos. On Saturday I will take all the décor out during the water change to try and catch her without a net, I will put food in a box, and make sure they are hungry! If the water is good and the filters were cleaned 3 weeks ago (just before Octozin) what are the chances of an infection or fungus? There was some old dirty décor in the tank that doesn’t clean up, I’ve removed it. The wood is old but the bristlenose keeps it clean.
2. Should I be using metroplex in the water in additional to in food? I have been told different things by different people. I messaged the Seachem helpdesk twice, no response. When I add the food to the water there is a cloud of white powder in the water so I don’t know how much metro they are really getting. I am soaking the food for at least 10 minutes - should I be leaving it longer? It could be the water changes that are aiding recovery, not the metroplex. I am adding it to pellets with garlic guard and focus. The challenge is I dont have enough metroplex for food and water. I ordered some more but it takes ages to arrive and there’s a risk it doesn’t arrive at all as I am not in America. There is a discus guy who I can probably get some metronidazole powder from but it’s a different brand – just metronidazole powder and not sure on dosage.
3. Should I be treating for internal bacteria after the metro treatment is complete? With internal filtration I’m not keen on this so soon after Octozin. I have oxytetracycline flakes, Myxazin and sulfaplex, but they had kanamycin flakes in January ish as the female had an infection which was resolved – but maybe was related to these flagellates, not sure (she spawned since then with no issues). Metroplex also claims to treat anaerobic bacterial issues. Not keen to repeat kanamycin so soon as it’s not great for their kidneys. I lost two ember tetras during the kanamycin treatment, one was already on it’s way out but the other seemed fine before the treatment but got bloated and died a week after so probably killed it's kidney's with kanamycin.
My conclusion from all of this is I will be switching to 100% RO remineralised shortly, and I'll do weekly changes, not every 10 days. My tap water is part of the issue as even with 1/3 tap my baseline for nitrates is around 15ppm. They spawn on average once a month so I need to do everything I can to make sure they're okay next time. Given these issues I'm going to remove the eggs going forward, they haven't hatched since before last summer, my research suggest flagellates pass onto fry so not keen to raise anymore of their fry, and not keen on them eating the eggs either. They're still quite young for keyholes so I hope I get at least another couple of years with them, they're such great fish. Unfortunately I don't have a quarantine currently as it's full of fry from another tank, but once the fry have gone I'm considering putting them in a smaller tank with just the nano tetras and rasboras. The issue with this will be maintaining the water quality as the other tank is 80 x 35 x 37cm water area so may be best to leave them in the bigger tank. I can't plant the tank properly as he just eats the plants except anubias - tried vallis, java fern, stem plants, duckweed, he even ate duckweed!
Thanks in advance!
Here is the rest of the information you request:
Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?)
Keyhole cichlid pair – around four years old
What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies?
Female – prolapse – concerned about getting infected
Male – HITH symptoms, pitted, no fungus
There is white fluffy faeces in the tank that comes from the male. She has stringy faeces with white sections and brown sections
How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?)
Last summer I treated with Waterlife Myxazin followed by Waterlife Octozin for what I suspected might be flagellate related after a dodgy spawn.
What's the full stocking list?
2 keyholes, 8 corys, 1 bristlenose, 7 emerald eyespot rasbora, 4 ember tetras
Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish?
No. I do appear to have lost a cory but had 9 for 3 years and not lost any until this point. They are not the best quality Venezuelanus corys. I didn’t find the body, may have been a while back as I rarely manage to count them all, only if I take the large mopani out to clean under it.
What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!)
Fluval roma 200. Dimensions are 100 x 40 x 47cm water area. About 180 litres.
How long is the tank running?
Tank running since March 2021, filter running since Autumn 2020.
Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration?
No. No new fish since July 2021. Maybe need to think about gradually changing the sponges over the next 6 months. They’re not breaking down yet but will do eventually.
What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?
Once a day what they eat in about 2 minutes
Origin Nutrition Omnivore soft pellets 1mm
Origin Nutrition Soft Green pellets (for herbivores) 1mm – this are directed at where the bristlenose is but the male keyhole likes them, plus he likes eating plants!
Bug Bite tropical flakes
Bug Bite bottom feeder pellets
Bug Bite spirulina flakes (occasionally)
Origin Nutrition veggie flakes (occasionally)
Northfin bug pro (occasionally, hard to get where I live)
What is the temperature?
24.3C
What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH: 7.6/7.8
GH: 8
KH: 5
EC/TDS: 180-200
NO3: usually 20-30 (tap water issue), was 60 ish after 3 weeks away
NO2: 0
NH3/4: 0
I use 2/3 RO 1/3 tap as my tap water is GH 19/20, KH 14/15, PH 8.2-8.6, nitrates 40-50ppm, phosphate at least 1ppm (I don’t trust the test). Also high in nickel, aluminium and chlorine (no chloramine).
What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?)
api freshwater master test kit
Also have jbl ammonia and nt labs gh/kh – these are all liquid test tube tests
Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)
Seachem prime or fritz complete
Indian almond leaves
What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)
Internals: Fluval U4 1000lph and fluval u2 400lph
What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)
50-60% every 10 days. If the nitrate creeps up I do an extra water change or a larger change. Sand vac with every water change.
I clean the u4 every 4-6 weeks and the U2 inbetween. I should probably clean the U2 more often.
Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)
No
Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank?
No
Are there any unknown animals in the tank?
No, just some flagellate parasites I’d like to evict!
History: July 2023 went away for 3 weeks, came back to male with clear patch on his forehead and female bloated so treated with Myxazin then Octozin.
Before treatment after I’d been back a week she had breeding colours, tried to spawn but couldn’t - breeding tube was out then away twice before the third time she spawned. There was some red tissue sticking out with some eggs attached to it for a few days. It went back without my interference, I then treated. Seemed like a prolapse but wasn't as bad as now, was more like some eggs got stuck, she struggled to spawn.
Current situation: Went away again in April 2024 for 2.5 weeks, came back to the male with visible HITH and the female with what I thought may be the start of HITH. Did 70% water change. Treated with Octozin, to no effect. Did 40% change at the end of the treatment and 80% change 5 days later (Saturday 4 May) to try and get nitrates right down. The tank is used to large water changes.
Started treating with metroplex / focus / garlic guard in food on 26 April every other day as per instructions. Received metronidazole flakes on 1 May so tried to switch to them but fish did not respond well, both became lethargic and sat on the bottom, so I am continuing with metroplex in food every 2 days as per the instructions. In the meantime on Monday night / Tuesday morning (6/7 May) the female spawned and prolapsed, was pretty bad. Fasted her for 48 hours, she ate really well after that and seems her normal self displaying for the male, breeding colours not faded yet, nudging corys out her territory etc. After about 48/60 hours 50% ish of the prolapse had gone back with no interference, so I decided not to do an Epsom salt bath as she’s very skittish, and has jumped everytime I’ve tried to catch her in the past. I didn’t want her bashing into anything or to catch the prolapse in the net. I decided to remove the eggs before they got fungus, so I put the stone with her eggs on, and all the décor that surrounds them in a big quite tall Tupperware box inside the tank hoping she’d get in it and I could remove her for an Epsom salt bath and methylene blue bath, no such luck, smart little cookie who seems very suspicious of me! I’d turned the lights out for an hour and she’d settled next to the box, the male was not happy with what I’d done, so I decided to just remove the eggs and put the décor back not to stress them for too long. So now the eggs are gone he is back to chasing her. The males HITH is clearing up with the metroplex and large water changes. I did 40% yesterday (Thursday) and will do 75/80% on Saturday, hopefully can see if her HITH is going. I will try to get her to come to the front for food before then.
I have some videos in mp4 format but they won't upload.
I have a few questions/concerns:
1. The prolapse seems to have got darker and I cant tell if the white bit is just where it’s healing or if there’s a white mark/fungus that shouldn’t be there. As such I would like to do a methylene blue bath. The shape of the prolapse changes, goes back more and comes out more as she swims around, so it’s very hard to tell. When there were eggs I managed to get the videos but now she just goes to the back of the tank everytime I try to film/take photos. On Saturday I will take all the décor out during the water change to try and catch her without a net, I will put food in a box, and make sure they are hungry! If the water is good and the filters were cleaned 3 weeks ago (just before Octozin) what are the chances of an infection or fungus? There was some old dirty décor in the tank that doesn’t clean up, I’ve removed it. The wood is old but the bristlenose keeps it clean.
2. Should I be using metroplex in the water in additional to in food? I have been told different things by different people. I messaged the Seachem helpdesk twice, no response. When I add the food to the water there is a cloud of white powder in the water so I don’t know how much metro they are really getting. I am soaking the food for at least 10 minutes - should I be leaving it longer? It could be the water changes that are aiding recovery, not the metroplex. I am adding it to pellets with garlic guard and focus. The challenge is I dont have enough metroplex for food and water. I ordered some more but it takes ages to arrive and there’s a risk it doesn’t arrive at all as I am not in America. There is a discus guy who I can probably get some metronidazole powder from but it’s a different brand – just metronidazole powder and not sure on dosage.
3. Should I be treating for internal bacteria after the metro treatment is complete? With internal filtration I’m not keen on this so soon after Octozin. I have oxytetracycline flakes, Myxazin and sulfaplex, but they had kanamycin flakes in January ish as the female had an infection which was resolved – but maybe was related to these flagellates, not sure (she spawned since then with no issues). Metroplex also claims to treat anaerobic bacterial issues. Not keen to repeat kanamycin so soon as it’s not great for their kidneys. I lost two ember tetras during the kanamycin treatment, one was already on it’s way out but the other seemed fine before the treatment but got bloated and died a week after so probably killed it's kidney's with kanamycin.
My conclusion from all of this is I will be switching to 100% RO remineralised shortly, and I'll do weekly changes, not every 10 days. My tap water is part of the issue as even with 1/3 tap my baseline for nitrates is around 15ppm. They spawn on average once a month so I need to do everything I can to make sure they're okay next time. Given these issues I'm going to remove the eggs going forward, they haven't hatched since before last summer, my research suggest flagellates pass onto fry so not keen to raise anymore of their fry, and not keen on them eating the eggs either. They're still quite young for keyholes so I hope I get at least another couple of years with them, they're such great fish. Unfortunately I don't have a quarantine currently as it's full of fry from another tank, but once the fry have gone I'm considering putting them in a smaller tank with just the nano tetras and rasboras. The issue with this will be maintaining the water quality as the other tank is 80 x 35 x 37cm water area so may be best to leave them in the bigger tank. I can't plant the tank properly as he just eats the plants except anubias - tried vallis, java fern, stem plants, duckweed, he even ate duckweed!
Thanks in advance!
Here is the rest of the information you request:
Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?)
Keyhole cichlid pair – around four years old
What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies?
Female – prolapse – concerned about getting infected
Male – HITH symptoms, pitted, no fungus
There is white fluffy faeces in the tank that comes from the male. She has stringy faeces with white sections and brown sections
How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?)
Last summer I treated with Waterlife Myxazin followed by Waterlife Octozin for what I suspected might be flagellate related after a dodgy spawn.
What's the full stocking list?
2 keyholes, 8 corys, 1 bristlenose, 7 emerald eyespot rasbora, 4 ember tetras
Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish?
No. I do appear to have lost a cory but had 9 for 3 years and not lost any until this point. They are not the best quality Venezuelanus corys. I didn’t find the body, may have been a while back as I rarely manage to count them all, only if I take the large mopani out to clean under it.
What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!)
Fluval roma 200. Dimensions are 100 x 40 x 47cm water area. About 180 litres.
How long is the tank running?
Tank running since March 2021, filter running since Autumn 2020.
Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration?
No. No new fish since July 2021. Maybe need to think about gradually changing the sponges over the next 6 months. They’re not breaking down yet but will do eventually.
What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?
Once a day what they eat in about 2 minutes
Origin Nutrition Omnivore soft pellets 1mm
Origin Nutrition Soft Green pellets (for herbivores) 1mm – this are directed at where the bristlenose is but the male keyhole likes them, plus he likes eating plants!
Bug Bite tropical flakes
Bug Bite bottom feeder pellets
Bug Bite spirulina flakes (occasionally)
Origin Nutrition veggie flakes (occasionally)
Northfin bug pro (occasionally, hard to get where I live)
What is the temperature?
24.3C
What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH: 7.6/7.8
GH: 8
KH: 5
EC/TDS: 180-200
NO3: usually 20-30 (tap water issue), was 60 ish after 3 weeks away
NO2: 0
NH3/4: 0
I use 2/3 RO 1/3 tap as my tap water is GH 19/20, KH 14/15, PH 8.2-8.6, nitrates 40-50ppm, phosphate at least 1ppm (I don’t trust the test). Also high in nickel, aluminium and chlorine (no chloramine).
What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?)
api freshwater master test kit
Also have jbl ammonia and nt labs gh/kh – these are all liquid test tube tests
Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)
Seachem prime or fritz complete
Indian almond leaves
What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)
Internals: Fluval U4 1000lph and fluval u2 400lph
What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)
50-60% every 10 days. If the nitrate creeps up I do an extra water change or a larger change. Sand vac with every water change.
I clean the u4 every 4-6 weeks and the U2 inbetween. I should probably clean the U2 more often.
Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)
No
Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank?
No
Are there any unknown animals in the tank?
No, just some flagellate parasites I’d like to evict!
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