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What does one do with 200+ trifasciata fry?

Chromedome

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5 Year Member
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99
I purchased two pairs of trifasciata maciliense from Jeff (AquaticClarity) at the Greater Chicago show on Memorial Day weekend, and lacking a better place for them, I put them in a long 20 with about 50 Rosy Tetras around 1.25" in length. I also dropped two small flowerpots in the tank, so the females would have a place to escape the males' attentions. Only hole is the small one in the bottom (currently the top) of the pots.

Of course, one male immediately took the dominant position, keeping the second in hiding behind a sponge filter. The females each took possession of a flowerpot at opposite ends of the tank. Surprisingly, they colored up and were displaying for the dominant male quite often. About the middle of June I realized the right hand female was staying in the pot, even at feeding time. Shining a flashlight down the hole, I could see wiggler fry on the inside surface of the pot!

Because the tank was so crowded I decided to pull them, and prepared a 5 gallon tank for when they started swimming. Turned out to be over 50 fry in this batch. Three days later they were hopping around the dish I had them in, so I released them into the 5. At this point, I realized that the other female was not coming out to feed! Sure enough, the flashlight again revealed wigglers hanging on the inside of the pot. Again, I siphoned them into a dish, which was floated in the 5 with the recently swimming group. Three days later I released these now-swimming fry with the slightly older ones. Again, the spawn was over 50 fry, so I have approx. 100 month old trifasciata fry in that tank.

Ah, but my title says TWO hundred, doesn't it? You guessed it: two weeks after the first spawn, the right hand female had another batch. This time I counted to 80 and lost track. Obviously I was not going to add these to the first two spawns, so I set another 5 gallon tank, this time next to the 20. I set it up on two pieces of 2x4 so that the height matched the big tank, and put an overflow system to circulate water from the big tank to the smaller. Works well, too.

The left hand female tried to confuse me - she waited another week before spawning again. Those wigglers will likely start swimming today or tomorrow, and I have floated their dish in the tank with batch 3. There's about 50 in this group. I have a number of 10 gallon tanks to transfer the fry into as they grow, and just bought 5 new 40 breeders at the Petco dollar a gallon sale. There are a lot of other fry in my fishroom at the moment, too; I needed the space.

I suppose you want to see some pictures. This is left hand female, and dominant male.

Apistogramma trifasciata maciliense female01.JPG
Apistogramma trifasciata maciliense Male01.JPG


First two spawns are in a "warm" tank, about 82 F. Last two are a bit cooler, around 77 F. I hope to test the idea that sex ratios are temperature influenced.

So what does one do with over 200 trifasciata fry?
 

Ekona

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
453
Congrats! Nice looking fish and photos. The first thing you'd want to do is feed the fry - I've had success starting with micoworms and adding BBS a couple of days later -they have been free-swimming for over a week and there are still about 35 fry. Just curious - are the fish pictured the colorform usually referred to as "A. t. maciliensis" or A. trifasciata?
 
Last edited:

gerald

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5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
What to do with them? I think they'd be HOT items at most aquarium club auctions. Our Raleigh Aqu Soc summer auction is Sep 14. Send me about 20-30 before then, I'll bag them in groups of 5 or 6 for the auction, and send you a check (the club keeps 1/3). IMO breathing bags are safest for really tiny fish -- less sloshing and they dont get trapped in folds as easily. I can send you bags & small thick-wall styro box.
 

peterclarke666

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5 Year Member
Messages
92
Location
Chesterfield, Derbyshire, U.K
Congrats! Nice looking fish and photos. The first thing you'd want to do is feed the fry - I've had success starting with micoworms and adding BBS a couple of days later -they have been free-swimming for over a week and there are still about 35 fry. Just curious - are the fish pictured the colorform usually referred to as "A. t. maciliensis" or A. trifasciata?

just trifasciata as A. t. maciliensis is rio mamore now re-described as apistogramma erythrura
 

Chromedome

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5 Year Member
Messages
99
Actually, I'm told that there is an A. trifasciata maciliense that is not A. erythrura. The ID of the Rio Mamore Red tailed fish as maciliensis was a mistaken identity of a closely related fish; therefore it required a new description. I'm pretty sure The Wise One can explain it better. I only have this limited explanation from Jeff Michels, but I have recently seen Mike mention A. trifasciata maciliense in these very forums.

I've been feeding them just fine. In fact, I did start out with microworms and quickly progressed to freshly hatched brine shrimp. The first two spawns are growing fast, I plan to move them to a 10 gallon tank in a week or two. I haven't seen but one dead fry so far. I think I accidentally crushed it while siphoning dead shrimp.
 

Ekona

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5 Year Member
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453
Alright so they could actually be A. t. maciliensis. Very good specimens and stock with which to work. Glad they are off to a good start :)
 

Mike Wise

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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
A. t. maciliensis (originally described as Heterogramma trifasciatum maciliense by Haseman over 100 years ago) is a population of A. trifasciata from northeastern Bolivia. Unless you know that your fish came from the same location as Haseman's, then you shouldn't use the maciliensis subspecies name. That being said, none of the professional taxonomists interested in apistos uses subspecies names anymore. Additionally, your male looks like a form of the species from the Río Paraguay system, not the Río Guaporé system where the maciliensis for is found. That's 2 reasons not to use the name.;)
 

Chromedome

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5 Year Member
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99
I am shocked, I would have expected Jeff to be more careful about what he is selling - especially considering what he charged for them. Oh, well, everybody makes mistakes. Thanks, Mike.
 

Chromedome

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5 Year Member
Messages
99
BTW, Mike, do you have a photo of the Rio Guapore population? If there's a difference, I want to see it myself for future reference (and to avoid buying misidentified fish).
 

Mike Wise

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My guess is that Jeff bought the fish under this name and sold them (like all other retailers do) as such. You saw the actual fish before purchase, so the responsibility was on you to know what you were buying. You must have liked them when you bought them, so why complain? They're the same nice fish. Does it really matter to you that they don't have a location attached to the name? The only time I have problems with retailers and fish is when they lie about compatibility/water needs just to make a sale.

Since we are talking about different populations of the same species, don't expect to see much difference between the Paraguayan and Guaporian forms. Basically, the most visible differences are in the caudal fin and color about the lateral band:

Paraguay form: no pattern in the tail fin, or at most a few spots toward the base; blue sheen above the lateral band

Guaporé form: weak to strong pattern in the caudal fin; honey color above the lateral band.

If you want photos, I suggest you get a good book on dwarf cichlids. Do a search here for recommendations.
 

Ekona

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5 Year Member
Messages
453
Those are nice looking parents - raise up the fry and offer some of them for trade or sale here - sounds like you already have interested takers - I'm sure you will more that recoup you money, and you can offer them with the correct ID. That's one of the great things about this forum is all the info, tips and advice that enable acquisition and successful breeding of species that can them be traded or sold among members.
 

Chromedome

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
99
Mike, thank you for the explanation of the differences between these populations. I spent many years studying Killifish - Locations are always important. It took decades before any cichlid keepers started to realize this. It may not matter at the moment, but if I have an opportunity in the future, I would not want to accidentally mix populations. My interest also goes beyond keeping and breeding the fish, as I have not been following the developments in Apistogramma for some time and would like to catch up. I have books, but things have been happening with such speed over the last few years that I could not be certain that someone hadn't resurrected the name. That was one of my reasons for posting here.

I understand that your average wholesalers and retailers are not knowledgeable about what they are selling. However, Jeff is serving a specialty market, and I expected a higher level of knowledge and information in this instance. I understand that he made a mistake; I want to ensure that I don't perpetuate that mistake in the future. I could have been one of those people who says, "Well, that's what I bought it as!" and just passed the fish on with the name I was given.

Would I have paid the same price had he simply labeled them as trifasciata? Certainly so, as it was a spur of the moment purchase. The price comment was sour grapes as other specialty online sellers are listing the same name at a much lower price. However, it was probably inappropriate here.

Ekona - my friend, I assure you that the young will be widely distributed when they come of age. The question was more rhetorical than actual; it was an attempt to be clever so that I could brag about my success without seeming a braggart. Guess I need more practice, eh?;)
 

Mike Wise

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11,217
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I understand your desire to know which population of apisto you have. I keep my apisto populations 'pure' if I collected them myself or if they were collected by another hobbyist I trust. Sadly, I'm an exception compared to most other cichlid keepers. Most wild forms of apistos are collected by natives and sold by exporters who are not knowledgeable (are really care) about precise collecting locations. Killies, especially West African species/populations, are mostly collected by killi hobbyists, bred and then distributed to other killie keepers. In this respect killie population names are more dependable than those for other fish. Maybe some day all wild fish will be sold by population, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.
 
Messages
115
Location
Seattle Washington
Post some on Aquabid if you get desperate. but see you will have no trouble finding homes for the multi broods!
That what happends when you turn your back on things like I did. See my "Suprize" thread.
Now it's time to separate the sexes!!! LOL
 

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