Water question

[Reiner]

I just got my water tested and my Nitrite is at a danger level according to the test strip. My PH is at 8.0 but the water is alkaline and fairly hard. What should I do about the Nitrite and what can I use to get the water softer. Thanks for any replies. Since this is my first post I also let you guys know the size and occupants of my tank and I would like to add that I'm very new to cichlids but find myself quiet a lot on the internet lately to do research about them. And that's how I found out about this website.
My tank is 30 gallon 4 feet long 14 inches high and about 10 inches deep. I have in there right now 3 blue Gouramies, 3 Buenos Aires Tetras, 2 Angel, 1 Chinese algea eater and one Firemouth cichlid about 1 1/2 inches big. I found some Altispinosa's in my LFS and would like to add a pair as soon as I get my water in better condition. My tank is also set up with artifical plants and I'm building them more caves right now which will go in the water by next week so I should have about 4 caves then. That's all for right now please help me out with my water problem. Thanks

 

[Eva32181]

Do a water change. Standard advice is to change 25% of the water once a week, or more often if your tanks are crowded or your fish are delicate. There are few problems that a regular schedule of water changes can't solve.

 

[farm41]

I usually change 40-50% weekly, but then, I am on well water and I use it right out of the tap, no conditioning. No cost involved, as some fish keepers I know have to condition their water and it can get expensive.

My tanks aren't overcrowded, I just like to use lot's of fresh water.

I have to agree with the previous post, water changes can solve most problems.

Sounds like your tank isn't fully cycled yet, keep up with water changes of at least 25% 2-3 times a week until you have no more nitrites.

 

[Neil]

Reiner,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

The first thing to do before dealing with the alk and hardness is to get your nitrite situation under control.
Are you sure that it is nitrite and not nitrate? If in fact you have high nitrites for any extended period, doing water changes might not help, because you will be reducing the bacteria that breaks nitrite down into nitrateas well as reducing the nitrite. But the nitrite will come back faster than the bacteria. The bacteria must be established in the system to deal with each phase of the nitrification process.
The other thing to consider is your test strips. Are they accurate? Maybe you can take a water sample to the LFS and get confirmation.
How old is your system? How quickly were fish added? And is there detectable ammonia and nitrates?
Hardness and pH issues can be addressed by a search in this forum, but let's get this other problem dealt with first.
Neil

 

[farm41]

My understanding of beneficial bacteria is that they predominately live on hard surfaces, glass, gravel, and filter media. I do believe changing water will remove some, but not much bacteria. Here's a good article on beneficial bacteria Aquarium Microbes , and some more links on cycling.


When I have gotten into a quickstart tank setup, I just put in a cycled sponge filter and do the water changes until nitrites are held to zero.

A planted tank is a whole different story though.

 

[Reiner]

Thanks Guys for all your replies.
To answer some questions you guys had.
My tank is about 7 month old so I believe it should be fully cycled.
The reason why my water is bad right now is that I had to move the tank so I let out 80% of the water cleaned it while I was at it and the big mistake was that I rinsed and cleaned the spounge in my filter which apparently holds a bunch of the Bacteria. Then a week later I showed first signs of Ammonia poissoning. I got the water tested at the LSF and they confirmed that and I started treading it. Now about a week and a half later I went back and the Ammonia was fine but the nitrite was way high. I also went to a different store to get it tested and they told me the same results. So right now I have been treading the water for the Nitrite since Friday and I will go back tommorrow to see how much it helped. I will keep you posted about the results.

 

[jowens]

Generally when you're trying to cycle a tank on the fly (which is what you're doing), it's best to do small, targeted water changes in direct response to your actual nitrite level. Farm is right in that 90% of your bacterial colony is usually found in the gravel and filter, but since both of these host sites are depleted in your tank right now, you want to be careful about removing too much water at once. In short, you want to avoid doing water changes so the tank can cycle - but if nitrites get too high, you definetly need to do water changes to save your fish.

You'll want to closely moniter how much nitrite is in the water - if it's approaching toxic levels, you'll need to do a water change simply do dilute the "poison." True, this may hurt your overall bacterial colony a bit...but it's imperative that you not allow your water to become toxic. Even though it's bad for them, your fish should probably be able to handle nitrite levels that are below 10 ppm. If it gets above that, do a change, just to dilute things and maintain safety. If it stays below that, you should probably sit tight so the tank gets re-cyled.

You can also try an over the counter product like "Cycle" or "Stress Zyme" - both of which purport to speed up the cycling process - though I doubt it will help too much. Increased aeration speeds the cycling process, so drop an airstone or two in the tank to supplement your o2. If possible, you should cut the amount of food you're feeding your fish in half (as long as they're acting healthy) and stop using fertilizer if you have plants. Reducing neutrients of all kinds is a good idea until your bacteria catches up.

I recommend 10% water changes (with no gravel vacuuming or filter rinsing) each time you see a significant spike in nitrite. If nitrite stays below 10 ppm, I'd be patient (unless your fish are acting funny - at which point you should do a change regardless). It will take some vigilence, but eventually you'll get it straightened out. Keep in mind that, as lame as it might be, you can control nitrite through daily water changes if absolutely necessary. This is a last resort, but you want to keep your fishies alive, so...

 

[farm41]

Does anyone know what the ingredients in 'cycle' or 'stress zyme' are? I have never used such a product. Unless you know for sure what's in it I would beware of it's use. Live bacteria sealed in a bottle is hard to believe.

IMHO

 

[jowens]

Farm,

It's supposedly a bacteria "culture" that will turn into a biological filter after you put it in. On www.fishprofiles.com we've had a few discussions on the merits of these products and the opinion has been pretty low. While no one has ever heard of them actually hurting fish (even in massive amounts), a strong argument could be made that - being biological in nature itself - the product will simply add to the already heavy bioload as it breaks down.

Some people swear by the stuff though.

 

[aspen]

i swear everytime i hear about that stuff. ( but i don't write them) he he. i maintain bacterial colonies in bb discus tanks, way overstocked with discus, with nothing but aquaclear filters, and am a big fan of fishless cycling. the bacteria should be treated like gold, without it, the fish are in bad shape.

reiner, imo the best you can do is, change water, feed your fish every 2 or 3 days, and don't touch the filter or the gravel until the tank finishes cycling. you would do well to own a nitrite and an ammonia test kit. at the first sign of trouble with your fish, these are always the first things to check. we all should know all about how our tank is cycling, and be able to monitor it ourselves.

rick

 

[Neil]

jowens,
Great post. "Generally when you're trying...."

aspen,
Here, here!

farm41,

My understanding of beneficial bacteria is that they predominately live on hard surfaces, glass, gravel, and filter media. I do believe changing water will remove some, but not much bacteria.

I will try and clarify what my post said, even though I am not sure that I remember the names or spelling of the following specific bacteria.
True! Bacteria, although present everywhere, is far more prevalent on the surfaces in the tank. My statement implies that in order for a population on nitrosomas or nitrobacters to establish into a large enough population to handle the normal requirements of a stocked tank, there needs to be the appropriate food to increase their population (which is ammonia and nitrite). When there is a large build-up of nitrites in the tank, it implies that there is a large population of nitrosoma bacteria breaking down ammonia into nitrite. Doing their job, so to speak. If this heavy dose of nitrite is to eventually be broken down into nitrate, then an equally large population of nitrobacter bacteria must be established. The only way a sufficiently large enough population of these bacteria (that can handle the amount of nitrite created by the nitosoma) is for that same amount of nitrite to remain in the tank as the fuel for their growth and propagation.
When you do a large water change, you not only are taking away the fuel, you are also taking away the bacteria as a direct result. As aspen and jowens said, the tank must finish cycling for it to handle the requirements it will have in the future. Or it will have to do it again.
Neil

 

[Reiner]

I'm glad some of you confirmed what the guy in the LSF told me. Which was " Don't touch the tank and don't change the water!!!" I was told by people at Petco first to change the water but I didn't trust them and went to my LSF and there water test also came up with different results then the test strips at Petco. ( test strip from Petco pH 6.8 and LSF water test kit from Tetra pH 8.0 just 1 hour later) So now today after 4 days of treatment with some Liquid Bacteria stuff I bought there I went back and my Nitrite level did not go down yet. So I will add that stuff for one more week and hopefully by then I have my own test kit and then I will measure again. The guy at the LSF also always wants to sell me a Liquid Gravel cleaner that supposedly brakes down all the dirt off the fish but a small bottle of that stuff is 15 bucks and I'm not sure if it is worth it or not. Has anyone of you guys ever used a Liquid Gravel cleaner please let me know what you guys think of a product like that. I guess I have to wait a couple more weeks to get new fish (that sucks but better then dead new fish after a day or 2).

 

[jowens]

Reiner, I wouldn't recommend using a liquid gravel cleaner. The best way to approach tank additives is how you'd approach human nutritional supplements in the health food store - skeptically. If you try to track down the science behind many of them, you'll find it's virtually non-existant. And because aquarium products are not injested by humans, there's even less accountability for the companies out there producing the various mixtures and potions out there that purport do everything from start your bacterial colony, to kill algae without harming plants, to cleaning your gravel for you.

I'm definetly not so closed minded as to argue that liquid gravel cleaners have no place in the hobby - but if you read the bottle they often claim you need to do NO water changes at all while using the product. We know this can't be true. So you need to ask how anything that starts with such a false premise can provide all it claims.

Beyond even this argument, however, is a much simpler one: your tank is very unstable right now. The more you add to it and tinker with it, the more unstable it's likely to become. If you're interested in trying a liquid gravel cleaner down the road I think we'd all be eager to hear the results...but for now, I'd play it safe and be patient. If your nitrite spikes very high or your fish seem sick, so a small water change. Otherwise, limit feeding and try to let "nature take its course."

 

[Reiner]

Thanks for your reply. I didn't bye the Liguid Gravel cleaner since I wanted the Opinion of other people first and it was also 15 bucks for a smal bottle. Even though the people at the local LSF are nice I do not bye everything they recommend right away because I do realise in order for them to stay in buisness they need to sell there merchandise. And I also just started to go there so I don't know them at all.

 

[Charlotte]

I noticed that nothing more has been mentioned about the suggestion to only feed your fish every 2-3 days. I think that is an excellent idea to help in an emergency situation when ammonia or nitrite is at a harmful level. Maybe go to only one feeding per day or every other day. It's not just uneaten food, but the food that they do eat comes out the other end as ammonia, which goes to nitrite, etc.

Good luck, hope your fish make it!

 

[Reiner]

I started feeding them now only once a day. I also purchased a Test kit yesterday since I'm sick of driving to the LSF to get my water tested.They also had a few Kribs in one of there tanks with a female looking quiete ready to spawn, bright pink round fat belly and a really good looking strong male but since my Nitrite is still way to high I couldn't bye them (what a bummer). The bacteria product to get rid of the Nitrite that I'm using is called Nitromax by Aquarium Pharmaceutical's I believe. Has anyone ever used that stuff and did it work for them? Thanks for all your help

 

[jowens]

I don't have much faith in those bacteria products, Reiner. I'm a moderator on www.fishprofiles.com and we've had some in-depth discussions on that board about these things, and the consensus seems to be that they don't work. While no one has done actual scientific measurements, plenty of people have tried comparing how fast a tank cycles with and without them. No one reported any ill effects to the fish, but no one reported a quicker cycle either.

The only concern I have with these products is that they're biological in nature. The main thing your good bacteria is trying to do right now is process all the biological matter in the tank, and I wonder if adding a product like Nitromax isn't just making the job harder. Nitromax, for instance, claims to have "over 2 billion live nitrosomonas and nitrobacter per ounce." My question is, how does this bacteria stay alive in the bottle? What does it feed on? Is it aerobic (does it breath air?)...because we know the good bacteria in your tank is aerbobic and it seems like it would be hard to breath air inside of a bottle. And if these bacteria in the Nitromax bottle are in fact dead, wouldn't adding them to your tank be the worst thing you could do?

Another thing you could do, Reiner, is borrow something from your LFS like gravel or a spounge and put in your tank. If you kept it wet the whole time and went quickly, you could "transport" good bacteria from the LFS to your tank, in effect "seeding" your biological filter. Whatever you took would need to come from an established tank, but this is a tried and true way of cycling a tank.