Thinking of German Rams would like more knowledge

[Gamegurl]

Howdy folks,
This is my first post so I'll give you a little info on my tank set up.
I got myself a nice little 29 gallon tank after not having one for too many years.
The tank has cycled and at present I have just 9 Glow Light Danio's and a couple Nerite snails.
I am awaiting some live plants and plan to add a bunch more as finance permits.
My plan was to get a couple German Rams, either a pair or a male and two females.
On a quick perusal of your forums I noticed a post stating Rams do not use caves???
I'm baffled as all information I have read has said to provide them a safe little cave.
Anyways since I have never kept that type of fish I would like all the information I can get, thank you very much
I'm getting a little gun shy for that breed as I have read in a lot of places that they are sensitive while another proclaims them to be great beginner fish.
aiyeee, maybe to much information
My LFS who are great responsible people have had some issues getting the Rams back ordered and I grow impatient and am leery of ordering a too small Ram online.
Not to get to distracted here, but I have been looking at the Opal Borrelii (sp?) as a possible second runner up.
There are so many Apisto's to choose from!
This tank is to be a mini fish tank so I am looking to score a group of dwarf Cory's to round the tank out.
My first community tank but I think my parameters will support all cast members.
Cheers and hope all have a great day
GG

 

[anewbie]

Rams are pair forming and if you put two females in there one is likely to end up dead. Also rams like it hot (82ish) while the glowlight like it cool so there is an incompatibility. Rams can be a bit more delicate esp with regards to temp change during water changes and such. Generally speaking dwarf cichild (rams, borelli) do not mix well with cory. Small rams are not an issue as eventually they will become larger rams.

 

[Gamegurl]

Rams are pair forming and if you put two females in there one is likely to end up dead. Also rams like it hot (82ish) while the glowlight like it cool so there is an incompatibility. Rams can be a bit more delicate esp with regards to temp change during water changes and such. Generally speaking dwarf cichild (rams, borelli) do not mix well with cory. Small rams are not an issue as eventually they will become larger rams.

Good to know about the two females, thanks. I am aware of the temperature thing, at this time I have my tank at 80 degrees, ideally my Danio's might like cooler water but I'm hoping the median temperature will benefit both. So far the Danio's are doing great and have been for some time. What's the deal with Cory's? I wondered as I have read that the Rams and I think Apisto's also sift through the sand. Is this the reason? I wondered that that would be a competition on the bottom as everything I have read says they(Apisto and Ram) hang down there mostly. Thanks in advance for your help.
GG

 

[anewbie]

cory/dwarf cichlid; it has to do with territory and cory ignoring such.

temp for cory - depends on the species.

danio and 80; they will do fine until they stop doing fine.

 

[Gamegurl]

cory/dwarf cichlid; it has to do with territory and cory ignoring such.

temp for cory - depends on the species.

danio and 80; they will do fine until they stop doing fine.

sigh...I have looked up temperature ranges and this fish type is fine at that temperature in a range of 75-80.
please don't respond, your replies have driven me away from this site.

 

[MacZ]

The Mikrogeophagus ramirezi available in the trade are overbred, mass produced fish. Genetically a really small pool, a lot of autoimmune problems, hormone and antibiotic overuse at the facilities make these fish pop colourwise, but drop dead easily. This is the reason most people call them sensitive, which is most often from the experience of losing them within a short time (and often several specimens in a row). Anyone who tells you they are beginner fish is either interested in selling them, has no experience with them or has last kept them in the 1990s, when the aquarium strains were not yet overbred and wild fish came in regularly. Whenever I go to my preferred LFS, which has almost no losses of any fish, the M. ramirezi, especially the domestic strains, are one of the species I find at least one dead of. Same applies to domestic Apistogramma, longfin Bettas, dwarf gourami and fancy Guppies. The more popular and the more advertised for beginners the likelier you only find bad stock.

Those are indeed very sensitive and usually survive not much longer than 3-6 months after purchase unless kept in ideal conditions. They need especially soft water, not a blackwaterr species, though. RO is almost a must. TDS under 100 is good, about is 50 perfect. pH doesn't have to be as low as in blackwater, around 6 issufficient. Temperature between 28-29°C is optimal. Caves are not necessary, only used when hiding from a threat, they can be omitted, as they only take away room. Plants are very welcome, but except some strategically placed thickets of stem plants not a must, floaters are great though. So it should be a well planted tank, but doesn't have to be a lushly densely planted high-tech. Fine sand is a must, their name means "small earth eater" for a reason. So make sure they have access to the sand in a good chunk of the bottom area. They are open spawners a few flat rounded rocks are a good idea. Some people keep them in groups, as they do form pairs for a breeding season, then go their separate ways. That requires a well structured tank of 120x50cm footprint at least for 3m:3f.

All that said, if one gets wild, F1-5-generations or stabilized domestic strains from a breeder the requirements should still be met (especially the soft water!) but those are generally more forgiving than the fish from the LFS or online retailer as they don't have to be nursed to health in the beginning, can take lower temperatures and harder water at least for a bit

Concerning tankmates stick to small tetras or pencilfish. Danios are fast and greedy eaters, they will outcompete most dwarf cichlids in a short time and fatten up quickly, while all fish at the bottom starve. The temperature problem is almost secondary.
Small species of Corydoras are possible in tanks over 1m in length if one only keeps a single male dwarf cichlid, 1.2m if it's a mixed sex tank. For all of them it's important they have to withstand the temperatures, which limits the choice of species. Classic with M. ramirezi would be Paracheirodon simulans, Petitella sp. or Nannostomus sp., Corydoras sterbai, C. duplicareus and C. adolfoi. Not all of them occur with them in nature, but they all can stand the temperatures.

Here a bit of interesting footage:

 

[Gamegurl]

Thank you so much MacZ, you are the person I was hoping to hear from.
Great and thorough information, many thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to Apistogramma forums.

please don't respond, your replies have driven me away from this site.

Entirely up to you, but I'd stay and listen, people really are trying to help. We don't have anything to sell you, but if we can help? We will.

Have a look at the <"Seasoned Tank Time"> concept and @apistobob 's <"web pages">.

I am awaiting some live plants and plan to add a bunch more as finance permits.

Ideally you want plants in active growth before you add Rams or any Apistogramma spp. Plants make maintaining water quality a lot easier, and these are fish that need good quality water.

I really like a <"floating plant">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Entirely up to you, but I'd stay and listen, people really are trying to help. We don't have anything to sell you, but if we can help? We will.

I agree.

And in addition to what I wrote above an important warning:
M. ramirezi deserve a well established tank, tailored to their needs. So my text above has to be read as exactly that. If that isn't possible and READY when the fish are purchased, it's better to let it be.

 

[Gamegurl]

Thanks for the welcome's and encouragement to stay. I got myself all stressed out last night seeing *my plan* LOL disintegrate before my eyes. I'd rather have happy healthy fish than entertaining my whims.
This tank is definitely cycled and I have had the Danio's in there since August.
What would one consider a well established tank? 6 months?
I have heard the Cory warning before, that they are boundary breakers, what other bottom cleaner would ya'all say would be better?
I'm not rushing into anything and have a bunch of plants on the way.
I'm not throwing in the towel yet on the two species, Ram and Apisto but part of me is leaning into another African tank. Love me some Kribensis
hope all are well
GG

 

[anewbie]

Most dwarf cichild are happy to eat off the bottom; also bottom feeders are a misconception. If you don't over feed there is not food to 'eat off the bottom' but if you have cory or pleco then it is important to make sure there is food on the bottom for them to eat.

Kribs are fairly hearty but can also be extremely aggressive as they breed like rabbits and are among the best dwarf cichlid parents you will find. Also until a pair form the male/female will fight like cat and dog so there needs to be many hiding places. Once a pair forms they are very tight pair forming. soft substrate of some depth is also quite beneficial as they love to dig a nice nest; though a cave might do as an alternative but soft (fine sand) is still beneficial.

Fishes that hang near the top of a 29 will not be harmed by kribs (like kubotai rasbora) but fishes in the mid region might be killed. Some say kribs are not too aggressive but i found that they are far more aggressive than many dwarf cichild.

You could consider a pair of borelli if you drop the cory but i would not keep them with the cory and if you truely want to breed them i would replace the danio with something more suitable like ember tetra, kubotai rasbora, pencil fishes...

 

[Gamegurl]

Thanks for your reply and info.
It would be hard for me to tell if my former Kribs were aggressive as it was completely stocked with Africans who are all pretty aggressive.
They were a breeding couple.
My substrate is soft black sand with a line of colored gravel down the center.
I am totally OCD about food hitting the bottom at this point so no overfeeding, I just think those dwarf cory's are darn adorable BUT am not invested in them being a part of this tank.
All along I have thought that a group of cats would interfere with the gravel sifting bottom dwellers like dwarf cichlids.
I'm not a rich woman by any means so I'll plug along getting the plants happy and then decide if the Danio's stay or go. Gonna add some more hidey holes too and if/when I get my dwarfs I'll get them a nice cave or two to pick from
I'm pretty attached to them so we'll see.

 

[Gamegurl]

I guess you cannot edit your post here so commenting here.
If I decided to try Bolivian Rams instead what do you think of that?
I've read that they aren't nearly as tender as the German's.

 

[MacZ]

If I decided to try Bolivian Rams instead what do you think of that?
I've read that they aren't nearly as tender as the German's.

Overall a more hardy and forgiving species. BUT you will find either very bad or extremely good quality, nothing inbetween. They are especially prone to inner parasites. If they look a bit thin, very big eyes and the stomach sunken in - Don't buy!

 

[Mike Wise]

Gamegurl, I understand the desire to have dwarf cichlids breeding in your community tank, but it just isn't a good option. People here for any length of time know my mantra: "A community tank is not a breeding tank". You need to decide which you want, a community tank or a breeding tank.

As for conflicting information you have received, all I can say is that the best information is not online, where anyone can write anything they want. Nor is it from stores that sell fish. Although most have some knowledge, none can be experienced in every fish that they sell. Often they rely on information that is not exactly correct. The best sources are in published books, where the authors are more knowledgeable and their text is edited by others.

 

[Gamegurl]

Thanks for both of your replies.
I do know I can't have it all in one, breeding and Community.
My intent is not breeding but if it happened I wouldn't be upset.
I'm going for community and if I have to trade in my Glow Light Danio's it would be sad but I suppose for peace and proper setting for all I would do it. *small sob*
Looks like from what I am reading folks are maybe saying get just one male Apisto.
Isn't that cruel and unusual treatment for the poor lonely guy?
I guess I'll start a new thread in the Tank Mates section.
The Apisto's that have really caught my eye are Borelli, Agazzi Triple red or double red, and Trifaciata although I like the look of alot of them, hard to decide.
I have heard that the Trifaciata(sp?) is one of the most aggressive dwarfs?
There are so many cool types of fish available that no matter what I choose be it my first choice or not is gonna be cool.
Thanks all for your help and have a Smurfy day
GG

 

[anewbie]

Isn't that cruel and unusual treatment for the poor lonely guy?

Fishes aren't people and don't have emotions in that regards; however if we were to consider that they do then one has to also consider imprisoning them in a small cage or not having extremely clean water as cruel and unusual treatment.

 

[Mike Wise]

My intent is not breeding but if it happened I wouldn't be upset.

You might get upset when the apisto starts attacking the other fish in the community.

 

[Gamegurl]

Fishes aren't people and don't have emotions in that regards; however if we were to consider that they do then one has to also consider imprisoning them in a small cage or not having extremely clean water as cruel and unusual treatment.

One could argue that you are trying to antagonize me and I'd appreciate it if you would stop

 

[Memeboi]

One could argue that you are trying to antagonize me and I'd appreciate it if you would stop

It's not antagonistic, its dissecting an argument, your argument being that the fish would be lonely implies that you think of them in human terms, his point makes simple sense, right now you are the one choosing to take it as an offense. Also fact of the matter is that having an adult female and an adult male in the same tank means that either that they are constantly breeding, or the male is harassing the female in order to get her to breed, in apistogramma cichlids breeding is a transient relationship that is only monogamous for however long they are breeding, borderline is that in a small-ish tank like that your best bet is 1 male, for the sake of all the fish, including the apisto, they don't need friends, and they don't have spouses.