taeniatus ??dehane

[killiguy]

The fish below was sold as a taeniatus dehane but from Teds algorithm it would appear that it might be a moliwe.Any thoughts??

 

[tjudy]

It is more consistent with a Lobe River variety (far southern Cameroon). Moliwe males have a caudal that is mostly yellow with several black dots in the upper half. THis is an image of a wild Molwe (in hand on the side of the stream itself).

 

[killiguy]

Thanks for that Ted
Would you have more good example pictures to help us newbies get our head around the subject,of the main localities that is??

 

[tjudy]

Here you go: http://tedsfishroom.com/gallery/genus-pelvicachromis/

 

[killiguy]

Thanks Ted thats a great resource
Im assuming that these features are constant;so if a group of fish has a variety of patterns(some with caudal spots and some without) they are hybrids??

 

[Rod]

I would suggest P pulcher x P taeniatus is a hybrid
P taeniatus lobe x P taeniatus dehane (or similar)isn't a hybrid....it's mixing localities?
I find it interesting that for some species....mixing localities is a total taboo....For others......it as an art form (bettas/discus)???

I love pure forms.....but I must say I've had a lot of fun with Endler/guppy crosses
To me it's a not so much a matter of whether a fish is pure or not.....as long one isn't sold as the other
but with taeniatus....it seems "buyer beware!"

A pair of "Lobe" I once owned.....very similar but male had no yellow in tail

 

[killiguy]

I would suggest P pulcher x P taeniatus is a hybrid
P taeniatus lobe x P taeniatus dehane (or similar)isn't a hybrid....it's mixing localities?
I find it interesting that for some species....mixing localities is a total taboo....For others......it as an art form (bettas/discus)???

Rod your quite correct.Ive gotten into that thinking from killifish where localities are often new species once the're looked into,and I guess thats why we obsess about it cf bettas etc.we want to preserve what may be a unique species

 

[Mike Wise]

My only question about crossing different populations of Pv. taeniatus (sensu lato) - or any widely distributed species for that matter: what happens when this 'superspecies' is split into several separate species? I expect that this will occur sometime in the next few years. Then, your population crosses are actually hybrids of 2 (or more!) species. There value as a species disappears. Then it is another man-made fish like the Flowerhorn's. There's nothing really wrong with this as long as the seller explains it and the buyer knows it. More often than not, it just isn't done.

 

[tjudy]

We can debate species until the sun burns out... One definition states that a species is a breeding population totally isolated from another breeding population. That is an extreme... I do not think that blue gill in a pond in Wisconsin are a different species than blue gill in a pond in Virginia, even though they cannot naturally reach each other. However, when trying to protect the resources we have in the hobby (meaning fish from specific locations) it is important not to cross them. Today the species P. taeniatus is widespread and includes several different locations and some very different fish. Before 1960-something there were three species which were grouped into one. In the next couple years a paper will be published that will likely split them up again (and possibly into even more species). The genes of the fish will be the same... so crossing them today is just as much hybridization as crossing them two years from now when they have different names.

 

[wethumbs]

I have "Moliwe" male with caudal pattern extends into the dorsal fin but never an omission of pattern on the caudal.

Had a brief talked with Anton lamboj at ACA2011 on the Pelvicachromis taeniatus, he indicated the paper will be out later this year to early next year. To summarize what he said, the Nigerians are the true taeniatus; "Wouri" will be by itself; the remainders would be in the third group, minus the "Muyuka" and "Njanje" which he would not discuss in the paper for obvious reason.

Come to think of it, I remember seeing a "Nigerian Red" (which is believed to be a hybrid) that has a "Moliwe" caudal pattern. It was a beautiful male in its own right, but to me it has no right in labeling itself as "Nigerian Red", maybe we can call it the "Moligerian Red".

On a side note, we also discussed about the Congochromis sabinae and he indicated that all three localities are considered sabinae even though they have distinctive physical differences. So the question is can we mix them together?

 

[tjudy]

:wink: I have to laugh at Anton a bit. He likes to put on an air of secrecy about what he will publish, but then tells everyone who asks him about it. But he changes the story a bit each time too. A few months ago he was saying that he may split the two southern Cameroon types. The original name was P. kribensis and was based upon the spotted fish from the Kienke river (which runs through the town of Kribi). The fish to the south of that (Lobe River) were described as a subspecies: P. kribensis calliptera . I do not know if he will leave them as a subspecies, not assign subspecies status (that is not a popular taxonomic tool these days) or give them their own species status.