Stocking concerns and my first Apisto.

[TheMADsapper]

TL;DR - Check out the yellow '1st' and '2nd' near bottom
1st of all, if I'm in the wrong place, sorry, feel free to move it appropriately... This thread concerns alot of firsts. My first large (over ten gallons) planted tank. My first SA dominant tank. My first Apisto/ true tropical cichlid tank (I've kept NA Lepomis cyanellus and gulosus before). And my first "truly aquascaped" tank, if there is such a thing. Any info, questions, comments, concerns are welcome, but only experienced members will be taken with anything over a grain of salt....I have a 20 high, with a Aqueon HOB rated for 30 gallons (currently Act. carbon only, will get peat packets + Oak leaves). Black sand similar to Tahitian moon. 'Wild' collected driftwood + stones from river (all rocks are of a non-calcium composition). Plants include, but won't be limited to: Melon sword, Hygrophila, Cryptocoryne, Dwarf hairgrass, Vallisneria (soon...), and an Unknown variegated white and green plant, that looked similar to bamboo, causing wariness...but it isn't... And an unknown plant that looks similar to Anubias lanceolata... Lighting is a ZooMed 48w T5HO with a 10,000k 24w and an Actinic 24w (Mom DEMANDED some form of 'moonlight' until someone stocks LED strips Heater not currently on, but it's a 100w AGA submersible, and will be set to 78-80 F. (currently 75 F.) Water is a light, light tea color (carbon), Nitrates at roughly 10, Nitrites at 0, P.h at 8.2 (tap water + conditioner) Alkalinity very, very high at 300+ (not sure why, please help, is this even an issue? don't remember reading on this) Hardness between 80 and 130. All appropriate readings are in PPM. Current stocking includes 5 Glowlight tetras, 5 Neon tetras, 3 to 5 Endlers Livebearers (told fish store to grab five, but I swear we only got three) 3 white clouds (original late cycling fish, still here) 1 Cobra guppy, 1 Bristlenose Plecostomus (not letting him get full size, already have an agreement with a LFS), 1 Apple snail (diffusa), 5 Glass shrimp, and I believe I have a small herd of micro invertebrates, from river water + 2 tablespoons of pond silt for an anaerobic bacteria inoculant. Currently feeding freeze dried blood worms, dried Gammarus, and very finely crushed goldfish discs, just because of the unbelievable ingredients in this stuff. So my questions. (1st) Will these oh-so-peaceful tetras/white clouds/ Livebearers/ Guppy be in danger from any of the following options: (2nd)And which would you recommend) One male Apisto, OR a pair (mom doesn't want me breeding them because she doesn't want to see the massacre by those nifty tetras, or those same tetras getting massacred by defensive parents, however I explained how much more easily the other fish would spawn if so inclined, and she kinda backed off, but really I'd rather avoid the empathetic heartbreak that will ensue )...I believe the species we've seen at a LFS to be either A. Borellii, or A. Agassizii, and at another, all female A. Agassizii. If I've forgotten anything, please let me know, I'm new to these forums as well (first post today!), And sorry for the long read guys & girls

 

[Mike Wise]

Since this is a community tank, I think 1 apisto male (or 1 female) would be fine in this tank. It shouldn't bother any other members - except the glass shrimp, which will be considered food. I wouldn't worry about the alkalinity (= dKH) since you're not trying to breed anything. Same for pH being high. The only things I'd change from your plan is to just keep the temperature around 75°F/24°C and maybe feed some frozen foods, which apistos prefer over dry foods. Between A. agassizii an d A. borellii, A. borellii is the less aggressive/territorial and most adaptable to water values. Oh, and dispose of the carbon. It's a waste of money. Even the best commercially available activated carbon (used for 'pump & treat' remediation of contaminated groundwater) don't last long. Use a sponge in the filter box for mechanical/biological filtration.

 

[TheMADsapper]

Mike to the rescue! Yes I was thinking one male, looking at it now, its just too full for a pair. and I've heard Amano shrimp, plus a few others can defend themselves/ get away if threatened. Would this A.- either threaten my other fish, mainly my future apisto, or others. Or B.- not even matter because the Apisto will hunt them with no remorse? I've dropped snails as any future bottom inverts, because of mineral needs, and this is how I arrived at shrimp, because they (some) can tolerate softer water. Corydoras are out, as they would take up far more room, due to the needs for a school...Also the need for a Ph drop isn't only for the Apistos. I have no hard water/ high Ph species except Guppies., while they are adaptable to a large degree, I've heard Apistos (and tetras) absolutely need softer water (again, to a degree) and slightly more acidic water, otherwise, just like Africans out of high Ph, they will become stressed? Won't they also be more true to natural behaviors and more brightly colored? If I'm taking it too far, just let me know I want to get this right, and I'm willing to do alot if needed...and may I ask why so low for temp.? I've always heard they prefer a little on the high side of 'tropical' temps.? Also just picked up some Frozen Brine Shrimp yesterday, currently also have freeze dried blood worms, freeze dried Gammarus, Tubifex cubes (not doing fresh worms) and TetraFin Goldfish crisps, for the vegetable content, and of course I have Algae/Veggie tabs for the current snail/pleco/ and apparently the female guppies (only female, very odd)...I've read of the bursting of brine shrimp during the freezing process, and I'm considering raising my own, once things are ALL situated...And Borellii was near the top of my list, however everyone says A. cacatuoides is the most forgiving? And yeah, the carbon came with the filter, I wouldn't use it if I could manage, because it scrubs the beneficials outta my peat, and like you said, not that good...Yeah really I don't see how carbon ever made it's way in to the trade, it's only decent application is scrubbing air, IF done right Is there any difference in sponge types/ brands? Speaking of media, I got Fluval Peat pellets. I'm recording the amount of time it'll take to reach a certain Ph, then upon reaching this point, I plan to take out the filter pack, and only treat water for top-off/ changes by running water in a bucket with a trial & error determined amount to reach before mentioned correct Ph, if this makes sense...Dude, sorry for all the second guessing, I've read alot, found conflicting opinions, and so read some more...I will say I've never found info on your page 'apisto sites' that proves to be false, and amazing specimens also Prepare to reach that 7 thousand message count, you'll be seeing me alot (congrats)
P.S almost forgot....the mystery species was A. cacatuoides 'double red', finally got a good look at him after grabbing the peat and food. Nearly had a heart attack when I saw how bad he looked, soooo wished I was ready to bring him home. Asked another store to see if ordering some were possible, said they'd ask and get back with me...

 

[Mike Wise]

First, you don't need absolutely prefect water values for community situations. Community tanks should be fun and not require a high amount of extra effort. Besides, unless all the species are found in the same environmen, some won't be in their best conditions. Right now, the only thing I don't understand is why you have such a high KH/GH ratio. You must live in an area with a LOT of almost pure limestone/coral bedrock. I usually suggest using peat in a separate container instead of the tank's filter. With your high alkalinity it may require a large quantity of peat to see a drop in your pH. If not careful, a sudden depletion of KH will result in a very rapid drop in pH. If your Neons are doing well, many apistos will, too. Most apistos ignore mid/surface-schooling fish outside of times with fry. Obviously something about which you won't need to worry. They also ignore larger shrimp - until they molt. At this time shrimp are very vulnerable and, being soft bodied and not really mobile, are 'easy pickings'. Re: A. cacatuoides, looked bad because of feeding, health problems, or poor breeding?

 

[Linus_Cello]

I usually suggest using peat in a separate container instead of the tank's filter.

Buy a 40 gallon trash bin, fill it with garden peat moss and water and let the water steep for about a 72+ hours, then use this water (it will be tea colored from the tannins). Refill bin with water and continue to use until the water stops becoming stained and use new peat moss.

 

[uberape]

be very careful of your wild bogwood, it can cause fungal problems if not treated right. Even beach driftwood has caused fungus for me, but I might just be unlucky. I usually just buy it to save the hassle of losing fish and gutting the tank. but other members might have tried and tested woods/ or treatment techniques. just a heads up.

 

[TheMADsapper]

be very careful of your wild bogwood, it can cause fungal problems if not treated right. Even beach driftwood has caused fungus for me, but I might just be unlucky. I usually just buy it to save the hassle of losing fish and gutting the tank. but other members might have tried and tested woods/ or treatment techniques. just a heads up.

Are you referring to the white, fuzzy textured fungus? Everywhere I've looked people have warned of this, that it will happen. But never to be wary of it, and that it happens to all drift/bog wood put into 'new' water? Anyway it hasn't caused any concerns through cycling, and now 2 1/2 months or so in...

Buy a 40 gallon trash bin, fill it with garden peat moss and water and let the water steep for about a 72+ hours, then use this water (it will be tea colored from the tannins). Refill bin with water and continue to use until the water stops becoming stained and use new peat moss.

I live in a second floor apartment, an old, unkempt one at that...I'm not sure I could safely handle 400 lbs of weight, but then again, it doesn't sound like so much...could I get away with a smaller pre-treatment barrel? I only have a 20 high and a 5 gal. hex stocked currently, and my 5 is hard water....

First, you don't need absolutely prefect water values for community situations. Community tanks should be fun and not require a high amount of extra effort. Besides, unless all the species are found in the same environmen, some won't be in their best conditions. Right now, the only thing I don't understand is why you have such a high KH/GH ratio. You must live in an area with a LOT of almost pure limestone/coral bedrock. I usually suggest using peat in a separate container instead of the tank's filter. With your high alkalinity it may require a large quantity of peat to see a drop in your pH. If not careful, a sudden depletion of KH will result in a very rapid drop in pH. If your Neons are doing well, many apistos will, too. Most apistos ignore mid/surface-schooling fish outside of times with fry. Obviously something about which you won't need to worry. They also ignore larger shrimp - until they molt. At this time shrimp are very vulnerable and, being soft bodied and not really mobile, are 'easy pickings'. Re: A. cacatuoides, looked bad because of feeding, health problems, or poor breeding?

I live right off of the Mississippi, and the water is hard at the source, and hard out the tap...I've considered getting an RO filter, and mixing tap + RO water....The cacatuoides was definitely beaten up, but it was odd...he was in a tank with very non aggressive fish...perhaps he was in another tank at first, with less peaceable fish. He was also slightly underfed, with a sunken belly. The owners (family owned) told us "oddball fish aren't really a money maker for us, so I'm not sure when we'd get anymore"... I really believe they have no idea what they are doing...many aggressive large cichlids together, soft water fish with african cichlids, wayyy overstocked tanks, and the worst: a 30 year old cousin of the Raphael catfish, about 3 feet long, in a 55 gallon, 'not for sale', like someone else couldn't provide a better home than them...Me and my mom wanted to strangle her by the time we left...I've since found a far better store

 

[Linus_Cello]

I live in a second floor apartment, an old, unkempt one at that...I'm not sure I could safely handle 400 lbs of weight, but then again, it doesn't sound like so much...could I get away with a smaller pre-treatment barrel? I only have a 20 high and a 5 gal. hex stocked currently, and my 5 is hard water....

Ok, use a 5 gallon bucket (or two) and scale it down.