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Some Apistogrammas from Peru...

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
I have been on the lookout for some Apistogrammas (or other SA dwarf cichlids) to go with my Copellas which I got a year ago, and in all that time (despite living close to the Amazon) nothing has come up except some completely orange cacatuoides imported from Asia. Just recently several interesting fish have appeared for sale here. I just got one Apistogramma (id on another thread here as A. cf hongsloi) for free as it was a stowaway with some tetras from Colombia. It is very small and I am seeing it fairly rarely in my tank, which has a lot of leaf litter, branches etc. Now a shop (not in my city but will ship) is advertising 3 species of Apistogramma from Peru - agassizii, bitaeniata and "Ladislao" which I beiieve is quite new. They are all quite expensive. $22 each the first two and $28 the Ladislao. I have had a male agassizii before (from Colombia), it was beautiful, but very aggressive to any other cichlids, even bigger ones, but I never obtained a female. A.bitaeniata definitely appeal to me, and I am not sure about the Ladislao as I can't find much information or pictures. I wonder if any of these would be suitable for my tank, bearing mind that I already have the one Apistogramma in there. The tank is 240l with a footprint of 120 x 40 cm. I have approximately 20 Copellas, 4 otocinclus and the little Apistogramma. Could do with a bit more activity on the bottom. Water is very soft (KH 0-1, GH 1-2 but not very acidic (pH about 6.8) despite months of adding leaves. Recently I am trying a little peat in the filter.

Incidentally I was amazed to see that the same shop has Nannostomus "Cenepa super red". I am not thinking of buying any as they are $28 each and I just recently bought some N. mortenthaleri for $7 each that I am very happy with. They also have Hasemania nana, a tetra I have not seen for sale here before.

Anyway I would be interested in opinions about the Apistogrammas, or if it would be a mistake to get any.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
Well he sent me a video of the Apistos in a bare quarantine tank, difficult to see anything really but these are the best screenshots I could get of the ones he says are Ladislao. Obviously they are not in optimal conditions... He says they were collected in the same location as the Nannostomus "Cenepa" - is that correct?

Screen Shot 2022-10-25 at 18.19.12.pngScreen Shot 2022-10-25 at 18.20.11.pngScreen Shot 2022-10-25 at 18.21.13.png
He is selling them in pairs and says he will only sell 3 pairs of the Ladislao.

But he also has bitaeniata and agassizii "blue Tefe"

A whole year with no Apistogrammas available - and now a choice...oh dear...
 

Tom C

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
549
Location
Norway
... Any information available on their habitat, behaviour etc.?
... He says they were collected in the same location as the Nannostomus "Cenepa" - is that correct?
I haven't kept them yet, so I don't know anything about their behavior, nor do I have any information about what their habitats look like, water parameters, etc.
The fisherman who collects them has finding and selling rare ornamental fish as his only way to earn money, to support his family. Why help other fishermen to find, collect and sell all the fish by telling people where to find it?
We can therefore, for good reasons, not rely on any information about where this species is found, but we have listed it (in The Species List) as "Upper Río Marañon (Peru)".

A whole year with no Apistogrammas available - and now a choice...oh dear...
No problem, just prepare 3 new tanks, buy all the three species, and your dilemma will disappear!
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
Why help other fishermen to find, collect and sell all the fish by telling people where to find it?
Yes, I understand.
No problem, just prepare 3 new tanks, buy all the three species, and your dilemma will disappear!
Haha I wish! I already have four tanks on the go, electricity prices have gone up, can't afford to set up more at the moment...
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
I should perhaps clarify that I do have a 40l tank that can be set up quickly eg for quarantine or if any (small) fish has to be separated. I also have an empty 170l tank but I am not allowed to set that up on a permanent basis!
This is the tank I am thinking of putting new Apistogramma in - it will not be easy to catch any Apistogrammas if I have to!:
IMG_8087.jpeg
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
So some thoughts - for such a new species as A. "Ladislao" it would seem a shame to get them and not have them in a dedicated breeding situation. One idea I had would be to set up the 40l as quarantine, but also with breeding possibilities, condition the fish, see if they breed and then remove the male to the bigger tank as necessary - would this work or is the tank just too small? I suppose it would be ideal to get two pairs as a kind of insurance policy, but then starts to get expensive... If I decide to do this it would be as an interesting project and just for my own satisfaction, as I believe there is not a great demand for rare Apistogrammas (or any actually) here. If it worked out I would later put the female in the 240l tank (and hope the tank is big enough that this would be OK).

I don't know if this species breeds in pairs or is polygynous, but it seems they are being sold in pairs. There might be some flexibility, I could ask if it would be possible to get two females for instance.

The other possibility would be to get a pair (or two??) of the bitaeniata as according to Tom C's page several can live together and rear their fry in a tank of just 160l.

And not to forget I already have one little Apistogramma in there. I do have another tank where I could potentially put a single Apistogramma, but not a pair as there are already some bottom dwellers there.

I do like the look of the agassizii Tefe as well but my last experience with agassizii was a male that could not live with any others, maybe it was just that individual, I don't know....

I would be grateful for any advice before making any decision!
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
735
I would say that if you get two pairs; if they breed with success you could try a poly arrangements with the fry. Of course this will take a lot of time but I would not risk the principals given how rare they are and unknown with regards to their aggression level.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
I would say that if you get two pairs; if they breed with success you could try a poly arrangements with the fry. Of course this will take a lot of time but I would not risk the principals given how rare they are and unknown with regards to their aggression level.
Yes I am thinking that might be the best plan, though a bit expensive and might lead to some issues to sort out later on, I would just have to to deal with these as they arise.

Just received another photo from the seller, looking a bit better…
F4E2533D-7619-4C94-8C26-91CA30B941CD.jpeg
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
10,817
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Ladislao is a nijsseni-group species. Species in this group tend to form 'breeding (not mated) pairs' and can be quite choosy about with whom they breed. In most respects this species appears to be more closely related to A. payaminonis and A. wolli and should be maintained as such. A. wolli is one of the species that I keep as a species-maintenance project. They definitely will not breed with just any specimen of the opposite sex. I would recommend getting 2 pairs so each has a choice of mate. I usually put 1 male and 2 females together in a breeding tank. When a pair develops I remove the extra female as she is often attacked by both of the other fish. Once fry appear both parents are permitted near them so I do not need to remove the male. I breed my A. wolli in soft moderately acidic water, although I have had people tell me that the tank raised fish will breed in more normal water values.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
Ladislao is a nijsseni-group species. Species in this group tend to form 'breeding (not mated) pairs' and can be quite choosy about with whom they breed. In most respects this species appears to be more closely related to A. payaminonis and A. wolli and should be maintained as such. A. wolli is one of the species that I keep as a species-maintenance project. They definitely will not breed with just any specimen of the opposite sex. I would recommend getting 2 pairs so each has a choice of mate. I usually put 1 male and 2 females together in a breeding tank. When a pair develops I remove the extra female as she is often attacked by both of the other fish. Once fry appear both parents are permitted near them so I do not need to remove the male. I breed my A. wolli in soft moderately acidic water, although I have had people tell me that the tank raised fish will breed in more normal water values.
Thank you this is very helpful information - I did actually just order two pairs (I thought just getting one pair would be too risky) so I will take your advice about how to organize them...
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
The Apistogrammas arrived this morning. I was surprised when I opened the box to find 5 bags inside. The seller had sent me a"free gift" a little male agassizii. It is lovely, but I am not sure how I am going to accommodate all of these Apistogrammas eventually. For the moment though they are all together. I had luckily decided that the 40l (10 gallon) tank would definitely be too small for two pairs, even for quarantine, and rushed to set up the 175l (it has a footprint of 70 x 50 cm). A good job I did as the two male ladislaos were already raising their fins at each other while still floating in their bags, and started to fight the instant they were released into the tank. They seem to have settled now though, but I might have to move one before very long. The females are very small, I hope they really are females and not juvenile males. I can't take photos yet as the water is still not very clear and I have not yet set up the lights (though it is by a window). I will post some photos as soon as possible though.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
735
Well at least you know it is a bit of an aggressive species at least with their own kind; though I think this is generally true of nijsseni-group. I forget who but someone mentioned nijsseni proper can claim a territory as large as a square meter when I asked putting two pairs in a 4ftx4ft aquarium so there is that to consider.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
Right, yes, they do seem to be quite aggressive already. One of the males looks a bit thin, but he seems to be dominant over the other male. They are all eating Artemia, when I feed them is when I see the aggression now. At other times they are more dispersed in the tank. The seller said they are eating tetra colour food. I have not tried this but tried a little vibra bites and bug bites, they don't seem to be eating it but hopefully will find some when sand sifting.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
735
I'm not surprise they don't eat the vibra bites; I purchased some at the recommendation of other folks and no one would eat it 'cept the festum. Well after the festums went for it the angels started eating it - i swear those festum would eat an old shoe if i tossed it in.

As for bug bites; my apisto find the red ones too large but will readily eat the blue one - if you have the blue one i would try sprinkling just a little around the fishes so they can grab it while it is falling; once they realize it is food i think they will go for it.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
I'm not surprise they don't eat the vibra bites; I purchased some at the recommendation of other folks and no one would eat it 'cept the festum. Well after the festums went for it the angels started eating it - i swear those festum would eat an old shoe if i tossed it in.

As for bug bites; my apisto find the red ones too large but will readily eat the blue one - if you have the blue one i would try sprinkling just a little around the fishes so they can grab it while it is falling; once they realize it is food i think they will go for it.
Yes, I have the blue one.
 

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Prontodelivery wrote on Apistoguy52's profile.
Do you still have the F1 Ivanacara adoketa “red” from the Rio Icana, interested in getting 2 Pairs.
mikishuhoo wrote on Apistoguy52's profile.
Hi,

Do you still have Apistogramma diplotaenia pairs available to sell? Please advise. Thanks.

Kenny
I'm clueless. If I say something you can safely ignore it.
Apistomaster wrote on anewbie's profile.
I see that The Wet Spot Tropical Fish currently has the fire red A. agassizi you are looking for. Here is the link:
I've always had good experiences buying from them on line.
Hallo,
I am Hanzle from Holland and keep apistoos for 40 years. Had my own aquarium shop from 1984 till 1988. Always s great fan from apistoos and hyphessobrycon which is s great combination in a Community Aquarium. Perhaps.....in the near future I start breeding apistoos again. Have a 400 liters Community aquarium for hyphessobrycon wadai and apistogramma biteaniata.
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