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Softening water - Plant tanks

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,033
Location
toronto, canada
farm, for the last couple of years i have always had a planted tank going, (right now it is a 20) and i have come to the point that using plain sand works the best for me. when i have an algae bloom of some kind, i find that if i want to starve the tank of nutrients, having as subtrate void of nutrients is the easiest for me. i add the nutrients i want, when i want. having this kind of control is the only way i would want to do it, after having ripped out this tank and others because of uncontrollable algae problems more than a few times.

the best way to control algae is to 1. get the plants growing nicely, (my plants pearl all day long, and need pruning at least weekly) and 2. time. this may sound wierd, but i have been studying the plant people's successes and failures for the last couple of years, and while many people have different formulas for growing a tank free of algae, and plants can be pearling in the first few days after planting given the right conditions, it is the time for the plants to either produce algae inhibiting substances, or the tank to grow micro-organisms in an adequet number to eat all of the algae produced. all it takes is the time and patience to get a tank to the point where all of the algae just stops growing. (2-3 months??) i have no idea WHY the algae just stops growing, but ime, one day the water clears up, and the plants and fish are clearly visible, and the algae is almost non-existant. once the tank has reached this level of 'stability??' growing plants becomes a joy, instead of a big hassle. during this time, you want to manage the nutrients available to the plants (and the algae of course) carefully.

at the moment, my tank is going through a few 'growing pains'. i re-planted it a couple of months back. a couple of weeks back, there was a cyano attack which was going quite strong. i cleaned it off of the sides, gravel and plants as much as i could and forged ahead. now it has all but subsided. this week there is a nice carpet of a bushy algae on the sides, but the plant leaves are almost de-void of any kind of a growth, even though they are in the most directly lit part of the tank. i will keep this clean as well, but i know that in a short while, it will all just go away. btw, i have NO algae eaters in this tank right now. (2 rams, 9 glowlight tetras) if i am able to grow this tank with no utility species, then i will have at least proved that they are of little or no value (they all produce ammonia and the phoshorous they eat is all just pooped out again, right?). i'll keep you guys posted.

tank is:
20 gal tall
lighting 2- philips 17 watt 865 lamps, on an electronic ballast- very bright!
diy co2 added
fert- tropica master grow, added spare and a single jobes fern and palm stick, cut up into 1/8" pieces and placed under a few different plants.
50% planted with various moderate to fast growing species. no ground cover. no snails. i pp all plants before adding to the tank. very few water changes so far. phopshates and nitrates in water, both 0, every time i have tested (at least weekly).

jme, of course, rick
 

Neil

New Member
Messages
1,583
Location
Sacramento, Ca.
aspen,
I am loving getting info. on planted aquariums from this forum. The info that some of you guys provide is invaluable. Plants are only an amonia mop, a place to hide, and a source of food for fry for me right now. I have made half-hearted attempts at a plant tank in the past and failed for the reasons that you suggested in your post. I would like to try it again sometime in the near future when time allows, so I will be paying attention to the guys that know about this. I think that there are many others who benefit from this information as well. Accordingly, I will be restructuring the forum in the next day or two to include a section specifically for plant tank info.
I probably should have done this initially, but I really didn't know where the forum would be going. But it is very obvious that it is a category that should be added at the expense of some of the unused sections (at least for now). Thanks for your posts and knowledge aspen, farm41 and everyone else. Keep it coming! Neil
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,033
Location
toronto, canada
neil, you deserve ALL of the credit for taking the time to make a place for us 'little cichlid nuts' to learn a little and share.

as for planted tanks, i see lots of posts from people who say that their fish are all breeding happily in their planted tanks. i have personally seen a 2 pairs of discus who had never laid eggs except in a friend's planted tank and refuse to lay in a breeding tank. he has bushy's breeding, and rams. i have had rams lay inmy planted 20, and when i move them to a quiet tank of their own, (bb glass) they will not lay. this says to me that a planted tank is actually providing SOMETHING that an unplanted tank is NOT. therefore i would consider it to be a big value to people who are trying to breed hard fish that they try a planted tank and see what happens.

as for my little experimental thing with the 20 with no algae eaters, i am not a fan of keeping fish i don't want. ie, american flag fish are THE BEST hair algae eater, but they are agressive and ugly. if you take care not to introduce hair algae by pp'ing all new plants, you don't need any of these hideous fish (imo). and likewise for clown loaches (snails), plecos (most of which will eat your broadleafed plants), sae's (usually very skittish and will disturb your other fish), oto's (imo very questionable as to how effective they really are), any nocturnal fish species, (they disturb the daytime fish), snails, (they WILL often breed out of control robbing you of available bio-load and eat your precious fish eggs, AND provide an intermediate host for parasites ) or really any other fish that you would not want except to do housekeeping for you. not to count in the equation, that usually you have a certain problem that needs attention NOW. so you go buy a couple of otherwise unwanted fish, and forgo quarentine and all of your other fish get SICK. (it has happened to me more that once)

this means that you should keep all of these fish in a tank of their own, and use them clean when needed. (and feed them, and heat them etc etc.) drat, a tank for algae eating species. i wanted to get another pair of apistos.

rick
 

farm41

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,191
Location
monroe, or
Neil, I think a plant forum could be a great addition here, I love my plants(being a farmer first)and I have sunk way more money into growing them than into keeping fish.

Aspen, I don't have an algae problem.
I do have 4 heavily planted tanks with lots of light and pressurized co2
60g 192 watts at 5000K
55g 192 watts at 5000K
38g 120 watts at 6700K
20 g 80 watts at 5000K
all tanks are pressurized co2 and I dose TMG, Potassium sulfate, and chelated iron twice a week. 1/2 jobes plant sticks under the swords crypts, and dwarf sag. once a month

I do have some algae eaters, and they mostly eat flakes and wafers. My plant growth is amazing and for the last 6 months I have been taking the stem plant trimmings( bacopa, cabomba, rotala, ludwiga) and all the baby Ozelots Swords, crypts, dwarf sag. to the lfs weekly for credit. Usually about $40 worth credit per week.

When I brought home my first pair of apisto's I didn't even have to pull out my wallet. Just a trade for plants.

My plants are doing real well, I just have a hardness that I think might be to high for my fish. :) :)
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,033
Location
toronto, canada
farm, does my description of how a planted tank starts co-incide with what you have experienced, ie, successive algae waves followed by a clear tank? you seem along the same lines as far as planted tanks as i am, but more into it. can you name any factors which seem to be the worst/best for growing algae?

maybe you would like to take any one of those tanks and get into more detail. how long running, what kinds of plants, substrate, and esp, anything which you feel has helped you out to grow plants and not algae.

neil i am a strong advocate of getting into planted tanks in a small way first. that is because a 20 gal takes an evening to rip out and fully re-plant with the same plants, even if you had a massive snail infestation. a larger tank is a big pain to do in comparison. the exp i have gained in my little 10, 15and 20 gal trials, is going to go into a 90 in the summer or fall.

rick
 

farm41

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,191
Location
monroe, or
Aspen, I would like to get into more detail. Plants are my favorite part of the hobby, I do like the fish, but, my plants, I just love them. I think this thread is getting way off topic, and I'd like to learn more about softening water. Let's find out how Neil is doing on that plant forum and get it going by some discussion there.

If the plant section gets slowed up we could always start a new thread.

:)
 

jowens

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
88
Location
Boston, MA
Hey guys,

I know you were getting ready to switch this post back to water softening, but hey, I'll throw in my two cents on plants. I just went through the process of planting an established tank. Honestly, it was a fairly excruciating two months, but now it looks fairly amazing. Funny enough, it followed the exact pattern you described, Aspen, with vicious awful algae blooms in the first few weeks, followed by a long stretch of cloudy water, followed by - BOOM - a clear tank and much lighter algae. I felt like throwing a party on the day the water really cleared for good.

Anyway, maybe my favorite part about the plants is that it allows you to keep tinkering with your tank and thinking of ways to improve it, even after your fish are established. It's always kind of sad when your realize your show tank is full and you simply cannot add any more fish and have it work. But plants are a different story. If you can get them to grow, the more the better. They're constantly evolving, and after a while, even the pruning becomes sort of fun...it's just kind of cool to see life at work. Moreover, it makes the water so much cleaner! After battling nitrates constantly for a couple years, the planted tank now reads zero most of the time. It's remarkable.

I would agree with the recommendation to not fertalize the substrate at first. I made this mistake and I think it led to more algae and cloudiness. I think RO water is also helpful as most algae doesn't like acidic water and some, like blue/green algae, can't survive in pH below 6.5 at all.

Anyway, getting the planted tank to work takes time and patience, but if you're persistent, you provide light and CO2, and you plant it good and heavy and hang in there, the payoff is great.
 

Ron

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
21
Location
Brampton, Ontario
..so you dont recommend adding laterite when initally setting up a tank?
I had a planted 65 about 10 years back and getting back into the hobby with a 75.
All I did back then was add the plants (had a friend who owned a toronto aquarium shop, much cheaper!) and every 2 weeks add a liquid fertilizer.
But now I read about laterite, CO2 systems, etc.. and was thinking that I need this when I start.
Algae is easier to control if I have simple substrate then?
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,033
Location
toronto, canada
ron, there are many ways to get things to work. i would be contradicting 50% of the hobby or more, if i were to say that leterite is no good. many people use it to great success, as well as manure, peat and a whole plethora of other things too. what works for me is plain sand with added fert when i feel it is necessary. others i know use plain gravel, with a sand topping of an inch or more, with jobes plant sticks f/i.

much has been written about what to use a a base for your planted tank. most by people who know a lot more than i do. here's a link i thought was good.

http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html

barbara walstead's book has plenty of extensive research into substrates, as to why this or that is better. i planted and re-planted my 15 gal, then my 20 gal quite a few times before i got down to just using plain sand. i would suggest you do a small tank and fool with things. i can re-plant my 20 in about 2 - 3 hours. my 90 gets plants in december.

rick
 

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