Single Male options

[carp21]

Hi All,

Recently got back into the hobby and looking for some advice on which single male apisto species to keep in a community tank. Ideally would like to have two single males from different species.

I’m going to have some amanos, cardinal tetras, guppy pair, and potential group of red neon rainbowfish. Not looking to breed apistos. Could I keep two single males of agassizii and Macmasteri?

Some Parameters:
20 gallon long high tech planted (CO2)
2 weeks old (currently cycling)
ADA aquasoil for substrate
PH: 6.8-7 (tap is 7.5)
Temperature: 77F
Hardness: waiting on test kits but let’s assume relatively hard water

Attaching a picture of the tank in its first week of cycle. This will be pretty heavily planted once established and some floating plants as well. Will not be adding fish for at least a month except shrimp in a couple weeks.

 

[MacZ]

high tech planted (CO2)

ADA aquasoil for substrate

Hardness: waiting on test kits but let’s assume relatively hard water

I'm not going to sugarcoat it and I'm really sorry, but I think dwarf cichlids are generally not going to be very happy in your tank. @Ben Rhau and @dw1305 will surely be able to explain the problems with soil and CO2 and dwarf cichlids better than me.

Before you think me being rude, let me explain:
You have basically two choices for dwarf cichlids nowerdays. Domestic colour breeds or wild caught/wild type.
The former are the result of generations of line- and inbreeding only for colours and finnage ignoring health problems which get worse with every generation. Additionally they are most often bred in fish farms in a copy paste fashion. The result are fish that barely make it for 6 months in a tank that is not tailored to their needs. You could say, if you don't pamper them they will quickly decline. The majority of what you find in stores belongs to this group and most the original specimens of private breeders are taken from that stock. Results are as you might expect. Spectacular looking fish that are of fragile health and short lived.

We don't have to talk about why wild caught fish should be kept in ideal conditions.

Wild type fish are basically still the same as wild fish. But they are used to most fish foods and can deal with some less than ideal conditions, like water parameters.

In any case, ideal conditions would be (not saying it's a must, but in my experience it doubles many dwarf's life expectancy, if you can provide the whole list):
- soft water (KH and GH below detection)
- acidic water (pH 4.5 - 6)
-- both in combination are essential to keep the pathogen levels low. Dwarf cichlids are very sensitive to bacterial infection.
- fine grain sand (most genera of dwarf cichlids chew sand as their mode of feeding)
- leaf litter (while others forage in the leaf litter and mulm. Most do both.)
- lots of structure of drift wood, twigs and botanicals
- rather sparse planting, focusing on cover from above with floaters and floating leaves

I view the sand substrate, some leaf litter and at least water in the range of GH under 5, KH at 0-1 and pH at 6 without CO2 or chemicals, as essential to keep the fish healthy long term.

 

[carp21]

In any case, ideal conditions would be (not saying it's a must, but in my experience it doubles many dwarf's life expectancy, if you can provide the whole list):
- soft water (KH and GH below detection)
- acidic water (pH 4.5 - 6)
-- both in combination are essential to keep the pathogen levels low. Dwarf cichlids are very sensitive to bacterial infection.
- fine grain sand (most genera of dwarf cichlids chew sand as their mode of feeding)
- leaf litter (while others forage in the leaf litter and mulm. Most do both.)
- lots of structure of drift wood, twigs and botanicals
- rather sparse planting, focusing on cover from above with floaters and floating leaves

I view the sand substrate, some leaf litter and at least water in the range of GH under 5, KH at 0-1 and pH at 6 without CO2 or chemicals, as essential to keep the fish healthy long term.

Thanks for your response! I think there are some modifications I can make that might make the tank a better home for apistos.

Adding some floating plants.
Using rainwater for water changes (I can start doing this once we get into fall and get plenty of rain to store for year round use)
Last thing is adding sand. The tank is young and in theory I could cap the soil with sand at all or 30/40% of the tank near the driftwood cave. Thoughts on capping soil with some sand?

 

[MacZ]

Adding some floating plants.

Good.

Using rainwater for water changes (I can start doing this once we get into fall and get plenty of rain to store for year round use)

If you can provide it year round, switch completely to rainwater. Might be difficult to use CO2 with low KH.

Last thing is adding sand. The tank is young and in theory I could cap the soil with sand at all or 30/40% of the tank near the driftwood cave. Thoughts on capping soil with some sand?

I have no experience with capping soil with sand, because I don't use soil, but keep in mind to prevent lack of oxygen underneath. Also move some of the floor covering plants, so the fish has access to the substrate in the first place.

Are you sure these changes are not torpedoing your original plan?

 

[Mike Wise]

Carp21, there are quite a few dwarf cichlids that will live a long healthy life in a tank such as yours. MacZ tends to want perfection, i. e. as close to the natural habitat as possible. These fish are adaptable, otherwise they would not be found in our aquaria. In Peru, for example, we collected a spectacular metallic yellow tetra that we wanted to return for our aquaria. We were told it was impossible because they quickly die once bagged. We tried anyway. After a 1 hour walk back to our boat - and frequent partial water changes along the way - all had died. The important thing to think about is what other fish will be included in the community.

 

[MacZ]

Well Mike, I'm toning it down a lot recently, there are some things I still find essential, which is only a fraction of an ideal setup.
No question, of course the fish are adaptable, just to different degrees.

You remember the name of that tetra? Or is it a still undescribed species?

 

[Mike Wise]

Mac, I'm not a good person to ID tetras, so I don't know if it is described or not. Here is a photo TomC made at the collecting site. It was very biodiverse. The photo, besides the yellow tetra, includes a form of A. cacatuoides [A. cf. cacatuoides (Río Napo)], Crenuchus sp, and a Hoplosternum sp. Not shown were other tetras that are common throughout the Peruvian Amazon, Nannostomus marginatus, Copella sp. (C. nattererI?), Carnegiella strigata, and a Rivulus sp.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The photo, besides the yellow tetra,

That is a good looking fish. Was it fast flowing water? I'm going to guess not.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Mac, I'm not a good person to ID tetras, so I don't know if it is described or not. Here is a photo TomC made at the collecting site. It was very biodiverse. The photo, besides the yellow tetra, includes a form of A. cacatuoides [A. cf. cacatuoides (Río Napo)], Crenuchus sp, and a Hoplosternum sp. Not shown were other tetras that are common throughout the Peruvian Amazon, Nannostomus marginatus, Copella sp. (C. nattererI?), Carnegiella strigata, and a Rivulus sp.

View attachment 15148

Aphyoditeinae gen. sp. Morse tetra - Aquarium Glaser GmbH

The unusual term “Aphyoditeinae” is a collective term for small-sized tetra genera in the form of a subfamily, which could not be reasonably placed anywhere else. The world-renowned tetra specialist Jaques Géry introduced the term in 1972 in reference to the genus Aphyodite, but not as a...

www.aquariumglaser.de

Got them, I suppose. Thank you a lot, Mike. Now I have another entry in my cohabitation database.

 

[anewbie]

Aphyoditeinae gen. sp. Morse tetra - Aquarium Glaser GmbH

The unusual term “Aphyoditeinae” is a collective term for small-sized tetra genera in the form of a subfamily, which could not be reasonably placed anywhere else. The world-renowned tetra specialist Jaques Géry introduced the term in 1972 in reference to the genus Aphyodite, but not as a...

www.aquariumglaser.de

Got them, I suppose. Thank you a lot, Mike. Now I have another entry in my cohabitation database.

Does that mean they found a way to ship them? Btw this store sells them though they are currently out of stock:

Morse Code Tetra (Hemigrammus sp. Morse Code)

With shimmering gold-tinted heads and translucent bodies, the Morse Code Tetra (Hemigrammus sp. Morse Code) is an incredibly unique species native to the Rio Nanay of Peru. They get their name from the patterned black stripe running down their abdomen. Growing up to 1.25 inches, these small...

www.aqua-imports.com

 

[MacZ]

Does that mean they found a way to ship them? Btw this store sells them though they are currently out of stock:

Morse Code Tetra (Hemigrammus sp. Morse Code)

With shimmering gold-tinted heads and translucent bodies, the Morse Code Tetra (Hemigrammus sp. Morse Code) is an incredibly unique species native to the Rio Nanay of Peru. They get their name from the patterned black stripe running down their abdomen. Growing up to 1.25 inches, these small...

www.aqua-imports.com

Seems like it.

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, probably the same species. My only idea about getting them back alive is to use a sedative or opaque bag, or both. Aqua-imports is just up the road, so the next time they get some I'll go take a look.

 

[anewbie]

Yes, probably the same species. My only idea about getting them back alive is to use a sedative or opaque bag, or both. Aqua-imports is just up the road, so the next time they get some I'll go take a look.

Is aqua import reliable? Also wetspot carries them @ $12 a fish. But of course they are currently out of stock. The price point suggest these are not super rare for import as those fishes tend to go for $20 to $40 a fish. It is curious why they died - whether it was shocked or if they came from a river lack of water movement.

 

[MacZ]

Also wetspot carries them @ $12 a fish. But of course they are currently out of stock. The price point suggest these are not super rare for import as those fishes tend to go for $20 to $40 a fish.

That's pretty much how it went with the Tucano Tetra a few years ago and the H. sp. "Muzel". At first nobody knew how to get them out alive, then it worked somehow. At first you paid 15€ for a WC 1.5cm Tucano, now they're down to 7.99 a piece from dutch breeders. Still a lot in comparison in that size category. The H. sp. "Muzel" go for 3.99 by now, when originally it was 25€. They are easy enough to breed.

It is curious why they died - whether it was shocked or if they came from a river lack of water movement.

In most cases it's lack of oxygen or stress. There are animals from all kinds of groups, mammals, birds, fish... that when stressed too much just drop dead. I guess we won't know for sure until somebody gets some more info from the area of origin.

 

[carp21]

Update time:
Gh and Kh test kits came. Results are as follows:

From tap:
pH: 7.4
kH: 6
gH: 6

From tank:
pH: 6.8
kH: 3
gH: 5

I have aquasoil and added a couple pounds of seiryu originally. I expected the hardness to be higher in my tank and wondering if the fresh aquasoil is lowering Kh. Was going to remove the seiryu but now I’m not sure if I need to. Thoughts?

Will be placing a sandy “beach” in the tank for apistos. Still hoping to keep 2 different males but fine with just one.

 

[MacZ]

Soil is designed to lower pH by way of lowering KH. Manufacturers and scapers recommend using it in a maximum of 2°KH and CO2 injection.
As long as it is not depleted this effekt keeps going. Usually with source water like yours and no limestone this works for 6-12 months before it has to be replaced.

Once the soil has depleted GH and KH will drastically rise if there is a source like limestone. Then the water takes up minerals until its saturated, usually up to about 10-12° hardness. To most scapers this is irrelevant because a scape rarely gets kept going longer than a year tops.

So... You spent a lot of money on stuff you accidently used not the way it's intended to be, which messes with your water parameters and which will keepmmessing with them for a while.

I was actually hoping Ben or Darrell would explain this.

For softwater fish... Toss both.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Soil is designed to lower pH by way of lowering KH.

It does, via ion exchange. The cation exchange sites are initially populated by a proton (H+) ion, which is swapped for a cation, with higher valency, like Ca++, from the water column.

Once the soil has depleted GH and KH will drastically rise if there is a source like limestone. Then the water takes up minerals until its saturated, usually up to about 10-12° hardness.

Yes that is it, it's ion exchange and depends on both the concentration of ions and their valency

I was actually hoping Ben or Darrell would explain this.

No need, you've already done this

For softwater fish... Toss both.

I'm a silica sand user, but some people have used active substrates successfully.

Cheers Darrel

 

[carp21]

Update:
I removed the seiryu stones from the tank and added some inert slate. I sanded the edges of the slate smooth. Moved some plants around and have one large cave. Will be creating a second cave with additional stones.

Question: would a 20 long (30x12 or 75cmx30cm) be enough to house two single males? What about a pair of Borelli? Not looking to breed but have enjoyed watching spawning behavior. This is a community tank and they will be the only bottom dwelling fish.

 

[anewbie]

Update:
I removed the seiryu stones from the tank and added some inert slate. I sanded the edges of the slate smooth. Moved some plants around and have one large cave. Will be creating a second cave with additional stones.

Question: would a 20 long (30x12 or 75cmx30cm) be enough to house two single males? What about a pair of Borelli? Not looking to breed but have enjoyed watching spawning behavior. This is a community tank and they will be the only bottom dwelling fish.

As long as the borelli don't suddenly become territorial it should be fine - the issue is with a 20 long there isn't going to be a lot of room for other fishes. If you want more of a community I think you need a 29 with additional height. This is my 20 long that has a pair of breeding apisto. It has 4 otto 6 n. mortenthaleri and the 2 a. sp bluketi; and i've been tempted to remove the n. morthenthaleri which drives the female crazy. In fact after her brood get larger i'll probably try to remove them. The issue is you talk about a community aquarium - but if the glass is 12 inches and you leave 1/2 an inch free at the top and put in 1.5 inch of substrate you only have 10 inches and if the fishes (even top dwellers like kubotai rasbora) end up 2 inches down that leaves 8 inches and if the borelli are 3 inches off the substrate they are now 3 inches apart (borelli can be as tall as 2+ inches with fins fully extended). In addition 18 or so gallons isn't a lot of water.
--

 

[MacZ]

would a 20 long (30x12 or 75cmx30cm) be enough to house two single males?

Not without a second tank to separate them as needed, otherwise I'd not do it.

What about a pair of Borelli? Not looking to breed but have enjoyed watching spawning behavior.

One term to keep in mind: Population control. If you have unexpected success in breeding and the fry reach a size and age where they are out of the woods, you will have the responsibility to grow the fish out and find new homes for them. Until then you might need more tank space.

This is a community tank and they will be the only bottom dwelling fish.

Very good!