Sick Apisto!

[arifhb]

Yes gentlemen! The fish you see in the photo has been like this for a week! First I saw it resting its belly on the bottom, then it started to swim unsteadily by making jumps while swimming. It has been hiding like this for 3 days and prefers to stay still. It was eating food until yesterday. It even chased the corydoras away from it. Today it just looks like this! It has symptoms such as rapid breathing and unsteady (hump-like) swimming. The water parameters and temperature are good. There is no problem with nitrogenous compounds. The female cacatuoides is very healthy. Since I suspected an internal infection, I used two doses of kanaplex in a week, although I did not really hope it would work. I think it will be difficult to get back from this situation. What do you think? I am keeping it in a 50x40x40 tank. It had symptoms before I bought it in this tank. In its previous tank, it lived in a 70x50x40 tank with 8 neon tetras. All the water parameters were very good in that tank. It was generally timid for a year and preferred to hide. A 1.5-year-old male. There is no problem with the other fish. I use a canister filter in both aquariums. Water values: 34-40 microsiemens, 6.5-6.8 pH, 26 degrees temperature, 0-10 mg nitrate, no measured ammonia and nitrite. This is the case for both tanks. I do water changes every 2-3 weeks when I don't see an increase in TDS and nitrate, and instantly when there is a change. I mix RO and tap water. I didn't use any chemicals. I usually fed mostly dry food. Maybe he caught that phenomenon cichlid disease that I can't understand what it is.

 

[MacZ]

If you want you can still fill out the template.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

Maybe he caught that phenomenon cichlid disease that I can't understand what it is.

Frankly, I agree it's the typical syndrome many dwarf cichlids of pretty much all genera tend to go through at one point or the other. I'm not going to sugarcoat it: There is nothing you can do. Once a dwarf cichlid enters this stage it will deteriorate until it's over. I have seen a handful of cases with short term improvement with antibiotics but they all relapsed once the meds were taken off. Here in Europe where I live this is not even an option.

We still don't understand the exact mechanisms of this syndrome. I sometimes get the feeling these fish come with a best before date and once it's triggered there is no turning back.

 

[arifhb]

If you want you can still fill out the template.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

Frankly, I agree it's the typical syndrome many dwarf cichlids of pretty much all genera tend to go through at one point or the other. I'm not going to sugarcoat it: There is nothing you can do. Once a dwarf cichlid enters this stage it will deteriorate until it's over. I have seen a handful of cases with short term improvement with antibiotics but they all relapsed once the meds were taken off. Here in Europe where I live this is not even an option.

We still don't understand the exact mechanisms of this syndrome. I sometimes get the feeling these fish come with a best before date and once it's triggered there is no turning back.

Thank you for your comment; I specifically looked at the template and wanted to explain what happened in general rather than filling it in. It is really interesting that this fish has become like this for no reason at all. As I said, it has chosen to live in hiding for a year and has not even had a breeding period with a female. Maybe it has reached this stage over time due to this stress; I don't know. Or as you said, it is expiring.

 

[MacZ]

It is really interesting that this fish has become like this for no reason at all.

Well, there has to be a reason, we just don't understand it yet.

As I said, it has chosen to live in hiding for a year and has not even had a breeding period with a female. Maybe it has reached this stage over time due to this stress; I don't know.

I don't see that as stress, single fish usually have longer lives than fish that breed a lot. Not only females burn out, males do so too.

 

[arifhb]

Well, there has to be a reason, we just don't understand it yet.


I don't see that as stress, single fish usually have longer lives than fish that breed a lot. Not only females burn out, males do so too.

Yes, what you say is true, we do not understand this. We even interpret the symptoms in internal infection cases as purely probable; we do not have a clear interpretation and a clear treatment method without a pathological sample. We use broad-spectrum drugs for this reason, but that is also completely luck. We do not have a pinpoint treatment. We are lucky in cases where we can see the symptoms with our eyes, such as camallanus, white spot, hexamita, fungal infections, and we know the appropriate drug and treatment. Internal infection = uncertainty!

What I meant by stress in the fish was not that it was stressed because it could not reproduce; I meant that I could not see any reproductive behavior because it was constantly stressed.

Thanks MacZ!

 

[MacZ]

We use broad-spectrum drugs for this reason, but that is also completely luck. We do not have a pinpoint treatment. We are lucky in cases where we can see the symptoms with our eyes, such as camallanus, white spot, hexamita, fungal infections, and we know the appropriate drug and treatment. Internal infection = uncertainty!

Not only uncertainty, even if we know it must be for example a bacterial infection, often we have no access to anything remotely appropriate as a treatment. Without going to a vet I have access to meds against Ichthyophthirius, Oodinium, Camallanus, Nematodes, external fungus and non-systemic external bacterial infections (basically only skin infections). That's it.
Especially worms beyond round- and hairworms, internal flagellates and protozoans (Hexamita/Spironucleus) and flukes like Gyrodactylus/Dactylogyrus have become basically untreatable, let alone anything that requires antibiotics.
I tend to not use broadband meds, because most things can be identified, I just lack the appropriate treatments. Because what I'd have pay for the vet is enough to get a new tank. Also the next vet who takes ornamental fish is 200km away.

What I meant by stress in the fish was not that it was stressed because it could not reproduce; I meant that I could not see any reproductive behavior because it was constantly stressed.

Ah, that is of course possible, yes.

 

[arifhb]

Not only uncertainty, even if we know it must be for example a bacterial infection, often we have no access to anything remotely appropriate as a treatment. Without going to a vet I have access to meds against Ichthyophthirius, Oodinium, Camallanus, Nematodes, external fungus and non-systemic external bacterial infections (basically only skin infections). That's it.
Especially worms beyond round- and hairworms, internal flagellates and protozoans (Hexamita/Spironucleus) and flukes like Gyrodactylus/Dactylogyrus have become basically untreatable, let alone anything that requires antibiotics.
I tend to not use broadband meds, because most things can be identified, I just lack the appropriate treatments. Because what I'd have pay for the vet is enough to get a new tank. Also the next vet who takes ornamental fish is 200km away.


Ah, that is of course possible, yes.

Hello again, I took this strange fish back to its old home. I applied two doses of kanaplex but let me say again that this is not a situation related to internal infection. You will see in the video. It is like being paralyzed. What do you think?

 

[MacZ]

We call that a "Bauchrutscher" in German, a belly slider. The infection has taken out the swim bladder. Not good, those develop open sores on the stomach and then the doors are open for scondary infections. There's nothing you can do.

 

[arifhb]

Hello everyone. It's been a long time since my last message and the fish is still alive! It's eating and courting. I came across an interesting piece of information; the ancestor of this species is wild and these are its first offspring. However, its other siblings have started to have similar problems. Females that walk their offspring and their offspring have similar problems. I think it's more likely to be a genetic disorder; do you think so? Thanks!
@Mike Wise @MacZ

 

[anewbie]

I had one fish make a full recovery; it was in an aquarium where the tank became over crowded during a move. It started to develop both bloat and pop eye (male agasizz); i moved it to a 180 which only had a couple of dithers (water in both case was tap); after about 2 weeks it fully recovered and now 14 months later it is still alive.

 

[MacZ]

I had one fish make a full recovery; it was in an aquarium where the tank became over crowded during a move. It started to develop both bloat and pop eye (male agasizz); i moved it to a 180 which only had a couple of dithers (water in both case was tap); after about 2 weeks it fully recovered and now 14 months later it is still alive.

Nice to hear, but... what was the deciding factor? I know you mentioned that case before, but did we ever determine what exactly helped?

 

[anewbie]

Nice to hear, but... what was the deciding factor? I know you mentioned that case before, but did we ever determine what exactly helped?

My guess is that the over crowding caused stress/disease (my female nijjensi died that way in another 29 but she was already 4 at the time ) and moving it to the 180 gave it pristine stress free clean water. It basically had 80% of the 180 to itself for about 3 months. Part of the issue is during the move which took about 6 weeks i didn't do my weekly water changes as well as tossing fishes into aquariums while other aquariums were being moved. While it was an in-town move it was very painful as the tear down of even smaller aquariums took a long time (at the time i had 2 29s a 120 and a 40b and one of the 29s broke).