proper PH lowering

[drudnick]

I have purchased a breeding pair of wild elizas today, for delivery on Wed. My PH is 6.3, but was told to get these little critters to breed, I needed to be in the 4's. So whats the best, safest, and most consistant way to lower and maintain a PH that low

Thanks
Dave

 

[Zack Wilson]

Since you'll have time (I'm assuming you don't need them to spawn within the next couple days after receipt), just lower the pH little by little till it's where you want. I prefer dry powder form sulfuric acid-based products. Beware of phosphoric acids as this can contribute to algae growth.

A few things to keep in mind would be your buffering capacity/carbonate hardness/KH and general hardness/GH and TDS. Prior to beginning to lower the pH I would make sure your hardness levels are in check to allow you to lower the pH, and I would also see to it that there are not a lot of organics/pollutants in your water as the addition of acids it only going to bring up the dissolved stuff (TDS) in your water, so start it low and do water changes first if necessary. That set, just start adding a little acid at a time. I've lowered the pH by as much as 2 in a day in an emergency with no ill effects (most products say NEVER more than .2 in a 24 hour period, but whatever--how is that the "magic" number?). However, if you're in no hurry there's no reason to rocket it down. 6.3 isn't going to be that bad to start with for them, so you don't need to get it down for their immediate survival. The actual dosage to achieve these things will vary by product and should be listed.

My base TDS after mixing RO and tap is about 50ppm which leaves me with about 1-2 KH and after adding a little acid to get the pH to 5.25 I have a TDS of 60-70ppm which seems to work for the elizas. If my TDS gets much above 75ppm I know it's time to do a water change to get rid of organic pollutants. This has worked well for me with the elizas as well as dicrossus, diplos, and candidi.

 

[lab]

The safest and probably most used way to lower pH is by using peat. This can bring it down a little bit below 4, provided your KH is below about 2.

I do this separate from the tank in a barrel for this purpose. Then I simply add the peat water when I change the water. If you only do this at your weekly(?) water changes, it will take a while, but you can do daily water changes in a period if you are impatient.

You can also add peat in a bag or ketapang leaves directly in your tank if this is more convenient for you. Adding acid directly in your tank with all due respect sounds like an accident waiting to happen. The peat will also add beneficial substances for your fish and actually help to stabilize the pH.

Good luck,
Lars

 

[Mike Wise]

I use Lars' method, too, but for the extreme blackwater species like A. elizabethae I use straight peat filtered RO water.

A. elizabethae can readily tolerate pH values in the low 6 range and with moderately soft water, but it will not breed successfully in these conditions.

As for pH stability in my blackwater breeding tanks, I simply use a large sponge filter in a 20 gallon long tank that has a very low population of fish - usually 1 pair but no more than a trio - and few or no submerged plants. I also feed carefully (sparingly) and do weekly 25% water changes.

 

[STOKER]

The best and easy way to do it is by the way that both Mike and Lars have said.
I have done it this way for years with no ill effect , the main thing to remember is water changes and not to overfeed.

Best Mike

 

[drudnick]

So should I add peat in the filter? Also prior to receiving them, should I do a WC with RO water? I dont have an RO system, but can get RO water from a local shop.

Thanks
Dave

 

[Mike Wise]

Get your water to at least pH 6.5 & <5º dKH before adding your elizabethae. These values are only for temporary keeping the fish. For long term maintenance, they need pH<6.0 and <2ºdKH. For breeding success you will need pH <5.5 <1º dGH and <1º dKH. I personally prefer to add water that is pre-treated with peat before adding the water to the aquarium. You have much greater control over pH & GH.

 

[tjudy]

OK peat users.... what is the specific type and brand of peat that you are using? How long does it take to lower the pH in pure RO water?

I have tried the peat method with every different peat I can find OTHER than the uber-expensive eheim and Fluval products. (I figure there is no point is trying it is I will not be able to afford to use it.) I have not been able to get the pH of the RO water below 6.3.

I use the chemical method, which works and is safe it is done correctly. To do it correctly and accurately you will be a good pH meter and an accurate KH test kit. You can read about how I do it here: making water.

 

[drudnick]

I have to test my water for KH, but my PH is usually 6.3 in my tanks. My water has always been able to spawn every other apisto I have had, but I know these guys are going to be more of a challenge, with tighter water contraints. especially being wild

 

[aquacave]

Ted,
I use regular Sphagnum peat from HD. Large bale cost around $8.
Large filter bag (14" x 10") filled with peat soaks in 30gal. container filled with RO water.
It takes about a week to bring pH down to 5. I use drift wood and oak leaves directly in tanks if lower pH is required.

Albert

 

[Graham]

IIRC, most bags of peat will give you the approximate pH if you read the back of the bag. I have seen ranges from 4 to "below 6". All brands are not the same and any time I buy a new bag I like to test it out on a more "dispensible" tank before putting it into heavy use.

 

[tjudy]

I have tried three or four different brands of Sphagnum peat from nurseries. I have tried the soaking in a bag method, the letting a thick layer sit on the bottom method (at least I have a lot of well soaked and aged peat for Nothobranchius sp. killies), the box filter method, the canister filter method and the boiling peat and concentrating the tannins method. Nothing has worked for me. I am using RO/DI water 0 KH also.

 

[lab]

I have to admit I didn't think of that as a problem, Ted, but point taken. Off course peat is not just peat. The stuff I use I get from a garden center. It has no brand, but is just packed in transparent plastic. It is cut directly from a peat bog and is very firm. I ususally cut pieces out with a saw. I have been trying to find a translation for the danish term for this kind of peat, but simply can't. The danish term is "klyne", if it's any help. In my country it is also widely used for garden ponds, because you can cut it in to shape.

I know that acid can be administered safely. I just objected to dosing it directly in to the tank. Maybe I misunderstood Zack?

Lars

 

[tjudy]

When I adjust pH drastically using chemicals I do it in the mixing vat before I pump it to the tanks. If I am 'knocking edge off' a pH that is just .1 or .2 off I will use the chems predissolved in water and administered to the tank using an dropper pipette... usually right into the flow out of the top of the sponge filter so it disperses quickly.

I have not seen any peat that is not ground up. All the stuff I get is a very dry soil that takes a while to waterlog. I am trying again though... I am using a large cloth sack (snake bag) 1/2 full of soaked peat in a 5 gallon bucket of soft water, but not R/O... conductivity 90 mS, KH<1 and pH 6.9 (it was what was in teh mixing vat this morning). I will check the pH daily and report.

I would really like to get the peat to work for me, because I have some Nannostomus marginatus 'Mortenthaleri' (coral red pencilfish) that probably need extremely low conductivity and low pH to trigger a spawn. I am also buying six rain barrels for every gutter on my house to collect rain water... but that is a new project I will describe later.

 

[Mike Wise]

I've been using Sunshine brand Genuine Pure Canadian Spagnum Peat that I buy at the garden shop. A 2.2 cu. ft. (62 L) bale costs less than $10. It is more granular than long stems. My darling wife sewed 2 bags from nylon veil material in which I put about 1 gallon of dry peat. These are put in 20 gallon plastic bins above a 10 gallon UGF plate that covers most of the bottom. I have to weight the bag down with large rocks to keep it from floating at first. After a day or 2 the peat is thoroughly soaked & does not float. I use 1 air driven lift tube to circulate RO water through the giant filter bags. After 1 day the pH will be around pH 5.5 with new peat. After 3 days the pH is between pH 3.5 and 4.0! The conductivity raises, of course, to about 30 µS/cm due to dissolved organics from the peat. I use the same peat until the pH will not drop into the low pH 5 range and then replace the peat with new. I also have a bin with straight RO water to modify the pH of the peat water.

I don't know why your're not getting better results, Ted. I do know that some peats are more acidic than others.

 

[Zack Wilson]

I guess I was partially misunderstood. If there are already fish in the tank I would not normally add acid directly to the aquarium trying to lower the pH. I was under the impression that this was a new tank being set up, and in that case there's no need to treat the water externally. Normally I also adjust the water params in a seperate vat prior to adding to the aquarium.

Mainly for the same reasons as Ted I have resorted to chemical methods over the years for adjusting my pH. Not entirely sure why I no longer use peat at all, but I know that after several attempts I failed to get a desirable drop in pH from various types of peat. It also has the tendancy to discolor the water which sometimes I do like. I guess in terms of showing the tanks it just wasn't as attractive for showing the fish off with tea-colored water, though it didn't bother me. I never really noticed a big benefit to dealing with the messy peat in terms of breeding or health, so I guess maybe I just decided not to bother in the end.

 

[drudnick]

Ok, well there are fish in the tank, but I will be removing them tonight, and probably using some liquids that were suggested to me in an fish free tank. The elizas will be here tomorrow.

 

[STOKER]

Hi Ted

Like Lars I use peat blocks , so can`t comment on peat granuals .
I just soak them in rain-water drums . The water is ph 5.8 TDS 6 ppm , can drop the pH to between 4 and 5 by this method.

Mike

 

[drudnick]

Ok, my PH is in the 5.2 to 5.5 range. Now how is the best way to maintain it? I used a chemical to initially get it down without any fish in tank (removed everything) Do I put chem in the WC water before adding to tank each time I do a change?

 

[tjudy]

Yes. You want to match the water in teh bucket before putting it into the tank. The trick to maintaining a low pH is to have just enough carbonate buffer in the water to keep the pH from drifting. It does not need to be much at all. My acidic tank for Nanochromis transvestitus has a KH of 1, but that is enough to keep the pH stable.