Procedures for making soft, acidic water.

[Eddiekay1010]

I have a question regarding keeping Apistos that need very soft, acidic water. I start with RODI water and at this time I'm using Seachems Acid Regulator and Neutral Regulator to adjust it to the ph I'm targeting. It works well enough for now, I use a 50 gal container so I only have to mix it a couple times a month. My questions are, the ph and gh is right where I want it and the kh is also very low, that's what worries me, but I'm guessing there's no way around that, can you have very soft, acidic water with a higher kh to help buffer the water from ph fluctuations, I haven't had problems yet with ph crashes but it does worry me. Also with adding those powders to my RO water it raises the conductivity, is that a problem, how important is a low conductivity if the ph and hardness are in the optimal ranges? Sorry for the long post, I just can't find a lot of good info and I have almost every book of dwarf cichlids. What do some of you serious breeder do. Any links or sites that can help guide me would be great also. Thanks

 

[MacZ]

The feared pH drop and pH instability is kind of a myth. Many people have very stable tanks with a KH of Zero. The fluctuations usually come from using products like the mentioned acid and neutral regulator together, as the neutral regulator tries to keep the pH neutral, while the acid regulator is there to lower pH. If you want the pH and conductivity down, there is no way around the very low (< 2) to zero KH thanks to RO water.

What most people do that keep fish in such conditions (Apistos, Licorice gourami, wild bettas) is using peat or peat moss or we go botanical and just drop in what feels like a metric ton of leaves and seedpods. Peat for example is an ion-exchanger, that also buffers to a certain point in the low pH ranges, so the pH usually stabilizes around 6.0 or little below, provided there is no KH buffer in the water.

I cut my tap water (pH 6.8, KH 4, GH 7) 50:50 with DI water for a while now, finally getting an RO unit delivered on monday. The result is a pH of still 6.8, KH of 0.2, GH of 4.5. While the conductivity is still relatively high (have no own meter, but the reading when I borrowed one a few months ago was around 150µSI.), that doesn't really matter. Only very few species are really dependent on it being extra low. Try to keep it as low as possible, but don't try to get it to zero by all means.

Instead of using peat I use leaves and other botanicals to slowly lower the pH. The reasons are mostly price/availability (in this economy using selfcollected leaves from fall is much more effective than buying peat) and the slow change which is less stressful for my fish, that were kept in neutral at the store. Right now it's between 6.2 and 6.4, every month effectively going down by 0.2 points. I rather have problems getting pH down faster.

Friend of mine just started with peat and without RO his pH went down from 6.8 to 6.1 within a day. Problem: His KH (buffer) still is at 4, so as soon as the ion-exchange-ability of the peat is depleted the pH will go up again (basically what happens with your pH being fluctuating thanks to the neutral regulator).

My advice is to go with a premixed cut of RO and tap or straight up RO and only add a slow ion-exchanger, and no buffers.

As we all almost never can tell the exact volume of a tank sans substrate, driftwood, rocks etc, the method with powders is ineffective and dangerous. Ever got an acid burn? Not funny, I tell you from experience. Happened to me in school 20 years ago. Those acid regulators are using mostly hydrochloric acid, some use sulphuric acid. No imagine a fish swiming into that stuff while you dose it. Peat in contrast has far weaker humic acids, that don't give you a straight up wound when you accidently touch it.

Oh and a hint(if you don't do that already), de-gas the RO water before use, it holds high CO2-Levels and can lead to fish suffocating.

Good luck and ask if something's still unclear. (And so much for long posts... hahaha! )

 

[Eddiekay1010]

The feared pH drop and pH instability is kind of a myth. Many people have very stable tanks with a KH of Zero. The fluctuations usually come from using products like the mentioned acid and neutral regulator together, as the neutral regulator tries to keep the pH neutral, while the acid regulator is there to lower pH. If you want the pH and conductivity down, there is no way around the very low (< 2) to zero KH thanks to RO water.

What most people do that keep fish in such conditions (Apistos, Licorice gourami, wild bettas) is using peat or peat moss or we go botanical and just drop in what feels like a metric ton of leaves and seedpods. Peat for example is an ion-exchanger, that also buffers to a certain point in the low pH ranges, so the pH usually stabilizes around 6.0 or little below, provided there is no KH buffer in the water.

I cut my tap water (pH 6.8, KH 4, GH 7) 50:50 with DI water for a while now, finally getting an RO unit delivered on monday. The result is a pH of still 6.8, KH of 0.2, GH of 4.5. While the conductivity is still relatively high (have no own meter, but the reading when I borrowed one a few months ago was around 150µSI.), that doesn't really matter. Only very few species are really dependent on it being extra low. Try to keep it as low as possible, but don't try to get it to zero by all means.

Instead of using peat I use leaves and other botanicals to slowly lower the pH. The reasons are mostly price/availability (in this economy using selfcollected leaves from fall is much more effective than buying peat) and the slow change which is less stressful for my fish, that were kept in neutral at the store. Right now it's between 6.2 and 6.4, every month effectively going down by 0.2 points. I rather have problems getting pH down faster.

Friend of mine just started with peat and without RO his pH went down from 6.8 to 6.1 within a day. Problem: His KH (buffer) still is at 4, so as soon as the ion-exchange-ability of the peat is depleted the pH will go up again (basically what happens with your pH being fluctuating thanks to the neutral regulator).

My advice is to go with a premixed cut of RO and tap or straight up RO and only add a slow ion-exchanger, and no buffers.

As we all almost never can tell the exact volume of a tank sans substrate, driftwood, rocks etc, the method with powders is ineffective and dangerous. Ever got an acid burn? Not funny, I tell you from experience. Happened to me in school 20 years ago. Those acid regulators are using mostly hydrochloric acid, some use sulphuric acid. No imagine a fish swiming into that stuff while you dose it. Peat in contrast has far weaker humic acids, that don't give you a straight up wound when you accidently touch it.

Oh and a hint(if you don't do that already), de-gas the RO water before use, it holds high CO2-Levels and can lead to fish suffocating.

Good luck and ask if something's still unclear. (And so much for long posts... hahaha! )

Thanks for the info, I'll start experimenting on cutting the RO water with my tap water, my tap is pretty hard, ph-7.8-8.0,gh-11-12,kh-4-5.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My questions are, the ph and gh is right where I want it and the kh is also very low, that's what worries me, but I'm guessing there's no way around that, can you have very soft, acidic water with a higher kh to help buffer the water from ph fluctuations, I haven't had problems yet with ph crashes but it does worry me.

Just stop. The companies that sell these products are, at best, disingenuous about what their products do, and how they work.

I start with RODI water and at this time I'm using Seachems Acid Regulator and Neutral Regulator to adjust it to the ph I'm targeting.

It is exactly like @MacZ says, pH can never be stable in very soft water. Have a look at @apistobob (Bob Wiltshire's) web site it is full of <"good practical advice">.

Because you have a TDS meter you can use that to get a TDS value that suits your fish, I aim for 80 microS - 140 microS. (so about 80ppm TDS).

If you don't have plants in your tanks? I'd definitely get some, they are the single biggest factor in maintaining water quality.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Just stop. The companies that sell these products are, at best, disingenuous about what their products do, and how they work.

I agree, my whole point was NOT to use these products. They are rubbish and not much more than straight up acids and alkalines and should be used with safety attire like gloves, mask and goggles.

It is exactly like @MacZ says, pH can never be stable in very soft water. Have a look at @apistobob (Bob Wiltshire's) web site it is full of <"good practical advice">.

Like what he writes there.
But: I said pH can be relatively stable in soft water, provided this is achieved by other means than chemical additives. Just as Bob says himself on his site.

 

[CRD]

I have neither the space or the time to make a peat cannon/aging possible. I blend 10 gallons of tap water, with 40 gallons of RO water and add 7mL of a 20% muriatic acid solution to achieve 20tds/pH 5 water for my blackwater fish. Fortunately my fish don't seem to care if the extra free hydrogen in the water comes from leaves or a bottle

 

[MacZ]

I have neither the space or the time to make a peat cannon/aging possible. I blend 10 gallons of tap water, with 40 gallons of RO water and add 7mL of a 20% muriatic acid solution to achieve 20tds/pH 5 water for my blackwater fish. Fortunately my fish don't seem to care if the extra free hydrogen in the water comes from leaves or a bottle

It's less about the fish minding the source and more about the stability of the pH and SAFETY handling such substances. If it works for you, by all means, I just find it irresponsible recommending such stuff to beginners without proper warnings or at least explanations. A beginner should know why 7ml, why 20%, how to calculate this and how to handle the substances. Catch my drift?

 

[CRD]

It's less about the fish minding the source and more about the stability of the pH and SAFETY handling such substances. If it works for you, by all means, I just find it irresponsible recommending such stuff to beginners without proper warnings or at least explanations. A beginner should know why 7ml, why 20%, how to calculate this and how to handle the substances. Catch my drift?

Thanks. The OP asked. I answered. Its what I do. I'm more than happy to provide more technical details once your RO filter arrives

 

[MacZ]

Yeah, still, especially on a forum: Please don't assume everyone that asks knows how to handle chemicals.

I do, but I have my own method without handling that stuff, thanks.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Thanks for all the input, I did some testing on tap/RO mixes, heres the results.
RO/Tap
50/50 mix-ph-7.6, microS-166,GH-5,KH-3.5
87/13 mix- ph-7.5, microS-48,GH-2,KH-0.9
My tap is- ph-7.6, microS-339,GH-11,KH-6.7
I'm happy with the results from the 87/13 mix except for the ph numbers, they didn't really move at all hardly. I can't get a ph normal reading from my straight RODI water, but a chemist friend told me ph probes act very strange with pure water, not sure if thats true but even with regent tests it doesn't work well. I went to Apisto bobs site,(It's dwarfcichlid.com, right?), great site, he uses straight RO water, does anyone else do that, it works for him but I was also told not to do that. So I'm still a little confused about how to lower the ph without using acid regulator , sounds like it would take a lot of peat and botanicals to get to the 5's or 6's with my hard water. I have to say my ph has been steady over the past 6 months, varying between 6.4-6.7, using it but I dont like that it makes the conductivity so high(350-400). I know the use of acids seem controversial here but using that seems to lower the ph while keeping the conductivity low. I'll end by saying I don't do anything with the water until I think i need to with my fish, I'm a firm believer in getting the fish to like your water instead of getting the water to like your fish, but with some species in order for breeding or for them to thrive there's no other choice. Thanks again for all the suggestions.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

It's less about the fish minding the source and more about the stability of the pH and SAFETY handling such substances. If it works for you, by all means, I just find it irresponsible recommending such stuff to beginners without proper warnings or at least explanations. A beginner should know why 7ml, why 20%, how to calculate this and how to handle the substances. Catch my drift?

Could you explain how and why to calculate this, I work with some strong acids in my work so I'm know the protocols involved, it just makes me nervous using acids with my fish, never did it before, but I've heard plenty of people who do, just never have seen any formulas or procedures on how. Thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

87/13 mix- ph-7.5, microS-48,GH-2,KH-0.9

Perfect.

I'm happy with the results from the 87/13 mix except for the ph numbers, they didn't really move at all hardly.

It is to do with the carbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium. When you have any dKH the pH will be above pH7.

I can't get a ph normal reading from my straight RODI water, but a chemist friend told me ph probes act very strange with pure water, not sure if thats true but even with regent tests it doesn't work well.

Your friend is right, pH probes don't work very well in low conductivity solutions. You can improve this response, but I just ignore pH in low conductivity water. If you want a more complete discussion there is one in <"Pool filter sand vs ........">.

I work with some strong acids in my work

In your low TDS 87/13 mix you would only need a small amount of weak acids (from oak leaves etc.) to reduce the pH. I would strongly recommend not having anything to do with any strong acids.

If in doubt, ask your chemist friend whether 6 mol. hydrochloric acid is safe to handle, and he will tell you that it should be approached with extreme caution.

I know the use of acids seem controversial here but using that seems to lower the ph while keeping the conductivity low.

Have a look at @regani's comments in <"Leaves for Apistos">. He is really good on water chemistry.

I went to Apisto bobs site,(It's dwarfcichlid.com, right?), great site, he uses straight RO water, does anyone else do that, it works for him but I was also told not to do that.

Yes ApistoBob's is at <"the link">. If you use RO water you have to add tannins and humic compounds to them. Have a look at <"Newbie questions"> it is @ButtNekkid 's thread and he is no longer a newbie.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Could you explain how and why to calculate this, I work with some strong acids in my work so I'm know the protocols involved, it just makes me nervous using acids with my fish, never did it before, but I've heard plenty of people who do, just never have seen any formulas or procedures on how. Thanks

No, sorry I don't know how exactly, as I don't use that method. I only have a vague idea thanks to what I learned in school 25 years ago. Ask the other user, please, if you really want to. I'm with Darrel there in my opinion that it's better not to use that method.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I only have a vague idea thanks to what I learned in school 25 years ago.

It would be a <"strong acid weak base titration">, and just this graph (from the link) should tell you why it isn't a good idea.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Jepp, I remember, that was when our teacher handed out the goggles.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Hi all,

Perfect.

It is to do with the carbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium. When you have any dKH the pH will be above pH7.

Your friend is right, pH probes don't work very well in low conductivity solutions. You can improve this response, but I just ignore pH in low conductivity water. If you want a more complete discussion there is one in <"Pool filter sand vs ........">.

In your low TDS 87/13 mix you would only need a small amount of weak acids (from oak leaves etc.) to reduce the pH. I would strongly recommend not having anything to do with any strong acids.

If in doubt, ask your chemist friend whether 6 mol. hydrochloric acid is safe to handle, and he will tell you that it should be approached with extreme caution.

Have a look at @regani's comments in <"Leaves for Apistos">. He is really good on water chemistry.

Yes ApistoBob's is at <"the link">. If you use RO water you have to add tannins and humic compounds to them. Have a look at <"Newbie questions"> it is @ButtNekkid 's thread and he is no longer a newbie.

cheers Darrel

Thanks, I'll start reading those tonight, I just started using oak leaves in a couple small tanks, I love the look of it.

 

[Eddiekay1010]

Sorry for all the questions but I'm thinking about what I read on Apisto Bob's site about him using straight ro water. If I lower the tank water's ph by using botanicals, lets say to 6.0-6.5, when I do my water changes with my 90/10 RO mix, the ph on that new water, according to my testing is going be 7.5ish, won't it be bad to add that to my tank with a lower ph. Right now I'm using chemicals to get the new water parameters close to the tank water. Do you condition the RO water with peat and leaves also.

 

[MacZ]

pH is the measurement of H+ ions in the water. The more the lower the pH. Unlike with GH and KH, dilution does not effect the reading linear but according to how much buffer capacity (KH) the water has you put in.

So when the water you add has a pH of 7.5 (which in my experience is unlikely with that much RO but not impossible) but almost no KH buffer capacity, the H+ capacity of the peat is high enough so that when you add that water the H+ from the peat react with whatever is left of the KH in the water and stabilizes at the pH on the previous low reading.

With your readings as above, a 9:1 mix of RO:tap should have no real influence on the pH in the tank provided you have enough peat and botanicals in there.
But what you asked gives me the chance to explain why you need to replace the peat regularly. Its property of adding H+ ions to the water reduces with waterchanges, because each time while you remove some of the H+ in the water with the water, as soon as you add fresh water without them, more are going to be solved from the peat in your filter (or whereever you put it in the tank) and the H+ that are still in the old water inside the tank immediately will help lower the pH.

This is the same what happens in the wild with a rain shower. Water without KH buffer and without H+ gets added quickly to the existing body of water and the pH only rises short term within the tolerable range before stabilizing again.

 

[ButtNekkid]

Hi all,

Not much of value but i´d like to share my way of doing. I´m lazy. My tap circles around 130-180 µS.
I just filter it all through this and it drops way below 100 µS. Then it´s good to go.

I´ve bred Hongsloi/Njisseni/Cacatuoides/Panduro/"Abacaxis" this way.

All hail the tds meter! Never mind the ph around these parts.

Also, thanks for the kind words Darrel. Much appreciated!

µ

 

[anewbie]

Hi all,

Not much of value but i´d like to share my way of doing. I´m lazy. My tap circles around 130-180 µS.
I just filter it all through this and it drops way below 100 µS. Then it´s good to go.

I´ve bred Hongsloi/Njisseni/Cacatuoides/Panduro/"Abacaxis" this way.

All hail the tds meter! Never mind the ph around these parts.

Also, thanks for the kind words Darrel. Much appreciated!

View attachment 9712µ

How long does the water have to be in that pail for it to stablize the ph at a lower value than tap ? Also what type of leaves ?