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pool filter sand vs. play sand

vncnt

New Member
Messages
4
hi

i'm setting up my apisto tank right now and cannot decide what sand to use. i've used play sand purchased at home depot in a tank for large geos and i like it, but it seems that more people use pool filter sand. are there any differences? the play sand is half the price of pool filter sand in my area.

thanks
 

slimbolen99

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
550
Location
Shawnee, KS
Pool filter sand is lighter, and therefore doesn't seem to compact. It would be the better choice to use if you plan on making a deeper sand bed.
Play sand is cheaper, but it compacts. If you plan on keeping the sand bed under a 1/2", it would be great.

Hope that helps.
 

Stefaan

New Member
Messages
25
Indeed, play sand has got smaller particles, so it compacts a lot faster.
And if you don't do anything about it, it starts to rot and we don't want that ;)
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
If the sand is full of growing plant roots then I dont think compaction of fine sand is a problem. Live roots will diffuse oxygen into the surrounding anaerobic space. Personally I like fine sand because less crap settles down into it. I use Free-Range sand (collected from streams).
 

Mostlydave

New Member
Messages
13
Location
PA
Would seachem fluorite black sand work if I wanted to go with a dark substrate?

I'm totally new to cichlids and am also in the process of setting up a new tank. I've never used sand and was also looking at the flourite black because I wanted to use sand and something dark. I'd also like to know if anyone has any experience with it.
 
Messages
102
Location
Rockville, MD, USA
Fluorite Black Sand works well for me. Unless you plan on putting plants in the tank though, don't use it. The nutrients inside will leak into the water and alakazam, you've got an algae problem.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Unless you plan on putting plants in the tank though, don't use it. The nutrients inside will leak into the water and alakazam, you've got an algae problem.
I don't think it has added nutrients, it is clay based so it has AEC & CEC (the ability to hold and exchange anions and cations), but it doesn't have any added nutrients, this just means it isn't inert like sand (no CEC) would be.

The elements listed by Seachem (below), are the constituents of the clay that was used in making the Flourite.

Concentration of nutrients in Flourite™:

Aluminum: 10210
Barium: 124
Calcium: 195
Cobalt: 6
Chromium: 13
Copper: 17
Iron: 18500
Potassium: 2195
Magnesium: 2281
Manganese: 64
Sodium: 223
Nickel: 12
Vanadium: 15
Zinc: 29

or here for independent verification: <http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm>

cheers Darrel
 

Aquatopia

Member
Messages
40
Location
Bend, Oregon
I like the pool filter sand because the dust cleans out pretty easy and doesn't ever cloud my tank when I'm filling up with water after i've cleaned it out. When I clean play sand it looks like I loose a whole lot! Plus I get pool filter sand for $14 for 50 lb bags- hard to beat.
 

Water Changer

Member
5 Year Member
Go with POOL FILTER SAND.

Look for MYSTIC II -- I believe it is made by US Silica and it is fantastic.

I went to pre-rinse this sand and realized immediately it didn't require pre-rinsing -- the water was running clear as stream water.

There is no dust in my tanks even after cleaning.

It cost me $12.00 for a 50 pound bag.

Take the time and try to find this product if you can, I can think you will like it.
 

pistolpete

New Member
Messages
4
If the sand is full of growing plant roots then I dont think compaction of fine sand is a problem. Live roots will diffuse oxygen into the surrounding anaerobic space. Personally I like fine sand because less crap settles down into it. I use Free-Range sand (collected from streams).
I've been thinking of doing this as well but I'm not sure of the pollutants in the sand possibly, do you bake it or do anything to the sand before it goes in your tank?
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
I screen it to remove larger trash (coins, nails, bottle caps, glass, road pavement chunks) and then wash it outside in a bucket ... fill, stir, pour, repeat. If there's a petroleum oil film that won't go away, then I dont use it. No, I've never baked, bleached, boiled, or otherwise tried to "sterilize" it.
 

Bart Hazes

Active Member
Messages
228
I'm with Gerald on the small grain/compaction not being an issue. I've seen some apistogramma biotope footage from Ivan Mikolji and it had very fine white sand so that is what I look for. I have used Canadian Tire PFS and I like how it absolutely does not affect water hardness but it looks like small glass marbles and wouldn't be surprised if this stuff is manufactured artificially. It looks fake to me but I use it for my supersoft water tanks (lowest is 8 ppm TDS, several under 20). I've also used play sand from a landscaping company. Much cheaper, finer grain and off-white, so much nicer to the eye IMO. But it is hard to get these tanks under 30 ppm and they slowly creep up and I need to do a 25-30% water change every 2-4 weeks to keep hardness under 50 ppm. My most recent substrate are silica sands from a local company that is actually a natural product and they have it in a range of sizes. I got a very fine white (~US$7 for 23kg) and brownish (~US$6 for 40 kg) variety. The white has very little, but some, increase in water hardness, the brown a bit more. I've set up a tank with it yesterday and will do another one today. I never wash any of my substrates. Just poor in water carefully with a plastic back over the sand and cloudiness will be minimal or non-existent. As long as it is natural dirt I don't care, just have to watch out for sand with gunk.

Here is my semi-scientific water hardness impact test with RO, RO+white sand, and RO+brownish sand. Hardness after several days 6, 12, 28, respectively.
hardnessTest.jpeg


Here is the sand with the new tank partly filled. I've stopped using a dirt layer as plants seem to grow just fine on just fish poop. So you could say the fish are fartilizing :) my tanks. The sand layer is about 1.5" thick.
granusil.jpeg
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Bart -- I think you mean TDS (total dissolved ions), not hardness (Ca and Mg ions), right? Much of the soluble stuff that dissolves off sand and rocks (non-limestone) is Na, K, Cl, sulfate, silicate, and others that don't have much effect on hardness, and are vital for fish and plant metabolism. No need to worry about those rising to moderate levels.

I like darker sand colors for dwarf cichlid tanks; it seems to deepen the fishes' colors. Although most of my tanks have so much leaf debris and mulm it probably doesn't matter after the first 6 months.
 

Bart Hazes

Active Member
Messages
228
Yes I meant, and normally use, TDS. I think it is a lousy name because there are many dissolving solids, like sugar, that don't contribute to TDS. If you are going to measure ionic contend why not use conductivity but those meters cost more so there must be a difference between them.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Yes I meant, and normally use, TDS. I think it is a lousy name because there are many dissolving solids, like sugar, that don't contribute to TDS. If you are going to measure ionic contend why not use conductivity but those meters cost more so there must be a difference between them.
It is a lousy name, particularly because all TDS meters are actually conductivity meters.

Have a look at Gerald's posts in <"What TDS/EC meter .....">.

~$100 should buy you a low range Hanna conductivity meter that will be accurate enough. I like conductivity meters, they are low maintenance bits of kit.

They just use a conversion factor (either 0.5 (for Na) or 0.64 (for mixed salts) to convert from conductivity (in microS) to an estimate of ppm TDS.

You can only measure TDS by evaporating a known volume of filtered water to dryness and weighing the residue. If you have low conductivity water you need to measure the weights very accurately before and after. You usually use a filter paper to collect the residue.

Conductivity is a lot easier to measure.

cheers Darrel
 

Bart Hazes

Active Member
Messages
228
As a scientist I care about accurate absolute measurements. As an aquarist some reasonably proxy that tells me if my tank is stable or drifting is good enough, at least for now. I was struggling more with pH. In my very soft water the pH pens tend to take a long time to achieve a stable readout and if you move it pH changes again. The other problem is me forgetting to switch it off and it didn't have an auto-switch-off. Again a problem with low conductivity, which makes all standard pH electrodes perform poorly. I have a 5m roll of pH paper from SEOH (Texas) on its way. It targets a pH range of 3.6 to 6.8 which is perfect for my usage and it has a double colour stripe, one most accurate in the low and the other in the high end of the pH range. If it gets to about 0.2 pH units resolution I will be very happy. No more batteries and no low-conductivity issues. I can report on how it works after I get to try it out.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Yeah we've discussed soft / low-conductivity pH on this forum many times too - it's a hot topic with blackwater fish keepers! Darrel will tell you pH is irrelevant in very low-conductivity pH, since a tiny shift in the relative mix of ions can cause an apparent big shift in pH, without much biological significance. I'm not quite ready to call pH "irrelevant" (too many decades trying to understand and measure it) but he's sure got me leaning in that direction ... at this point I might tell you it's "not very important" in ultra-soft water. ;) I like color dye pH tests, since they're cheap and dont rely on electric conductivity. Please do let us know how you like that low-range pH paper. Years ago I had a low-range liquid test (red-to-yellow; dont recall which dye) for that crucial 4.0 to 6.0 range that blackwater keepers cherish, below the bromothymol blue test range. Haven't seen those kits in many years for aquarium use, but i assume the dye still exists for other applications.
 

Bart Hazes

Active Member
Messages
228
The pH paper came in the mail today. First lesson. My tanks are not nearly as acidic as I thought. In the 6-6.5 range. I had expected at least a unit lower. I then tried a bit of my vinegar eel solution and that read at or below the scale minimum of 3.5. I then tried the pH 4.0 calibration buffer and that corresponded to 3.8-4.1 on the paper scale. So far so good. I am a biochemist, though mostly bioinformatics lately, and will make a set of citrate buffers to see how the paper performs over its entire range.

Regarding relevance of pH in soft water I first of all don't think pH swings as much as people say it might. At pH 5 you need 100 times more acid or base to change pH by 0.1 unit so that helps to stabilize it. Tannins and whatever was used to push the pH down will act as buffer as long as they are weak acids, e.g. not HCl etc. So part of the reason that very low kH water, with little carbonate buffering, is not a problem is that pH may really not change as much as we are made to believe. Secondly, as a protein chemist, I know that many biological processes and protein function depend on pH. So there certainly is the potential for pH changes to affect physiology whether at low or high ionic strength. Actually, the effect of charge-charge interactions becomes stronger at low ionic strength but even "hard" water has pretty low ionic strength. But a more relevant point may simply be that these fish are evolved to live in soft acidic waters. If pH fluctuations are part of life then life will have been adapted to them.

Now I have to go back to the drawing board and think about ways to make my pH go down further. I'm using ADA Africana soil which works like a charm in a jar with RO water. Apparently, it doesn't work quite as well when done in a tank. Maybe I need to put it in a filter so water get drawn through it. Or I need to find a peat that works and doesn't cost a fortune.
 

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