Ph kh tds???

[77railer]

Hey gang,
I am having trouble with my ph rising in my tanks. Doing a little experiment to see what it is and figured I would get you guys to chime in and see what you think.
Fresh out of the tap my water is
PH 6
KH 0
TDS 43
A day after it sits in the tank it is
PH 7 ish...dark blue color
KH 2
TDS 300 ish

First test involves two 5 gallon buckets half full. One is empty and one contains 3 terracotta pots that when broken have a grey inner core of some kind. I suspect this to be the PH culprit. Tomorrow morning I will test both buckets and see what the PH ends up being. Currently both are at 6. Wish me luck...

77Railer

 

[ed seeley]

Check your substrate as well; it is often the source of carbonates. However that grey section does sound a little like a concrete type of substance - I'm surprised you found it in the centre of a terracota pot though! Mine are the same colour all the way through when I break them.

 

[tjudy]

I want your tap water! Where are you located? Are there any jobs there? :tongue:

There is something in your tank that is dissolving. I agree with Ed that the most likely culprit is the substrate. Whatever it is disintegrating at a pretty good clip to raise the TDS that much.

 

[77railer]

We are located in Sumter South Carolina..using a 60 year old well,lol.

This mornings findings are the same for ph on both buckets.

TDS on empty bucket is 51, bucket with pot (grey core) is 63
TDS on tanks with sand is 221 an 315.
TDS on 55G barebottom is 132 has 20 rams 5 tetras and a plant
TDS on Dosigera tank is 412 has several plants, river rock substrate, several fish.

One thing I didnt think about was temp. Maybe the addition of heat causes a reaction with this grey inner core? I placed a heater in the bucket with the pots and will run new test this evening...if there is no significant change I will remove some substrate and place it in the empty bucket to watch for changes...gotta figure this thing out...at least I know its not my water...


One question I do have is...is it possible to run tanks at a ph of 6, kh and gh 0 and is it healthy for apisto, pelvicachromis, and rams?

Thanks...77Railer

 

[tjudy]

Some fish like water that soft. Most do not need it that soft, however, and water that soft is not very stable. The natural processes in an aquarium, as well as the additives we put in them, will change waer chemistry. Water that is low in pH and has no buffer in it (KH) has the potential to crash.

If I had your water I would add a little KH (up to 2) and a little TDS (up to about 100 ppm) using products designed to for that purpose. The pH will come up a little bit. If I need the pH up closer to 7.0 (like you will want for Pelvicachromis) I would add KH and a pH increasor, then adjust the TDS up to the 100 ppm.

I still think you will find the problem in your substrate.

South Carolina sounds warm too. Soft water and warmth in January. How 'bout the job scene? :wink:

 

[77railer]

Its not bad temp wise here. Jobs arent that hard to come by but then again I teach school and own my own business so job security isnt really an issue with me.

After running a heater in the bucket with the terracotta pots all day I notice no increase in PH. Took some sand out of the bag and placed it in a bucket with water at 6.0. Will check it in a few minutes to see if there is an immediate change and will check it in the morning to look at longer effects. I have some acid buffer that should raise the KH a bit. Will log back in and post the new ph results in a few.

77Railer

 

[77railer]

Checked the bucket with substrate this morning and it had the same PH as last night. I stirred it and placed a heater in it to see if this makes a change.

One idea I havent mentioned on here but have bounced around in my head is the following...I used an established tank to seed the sponge filters which is a little high in PH. Could the sponges be driving up the PH since I seeded them in water with high PH? If so would rinsing them in fresh tap water solve this issue? Or am I way off base...the only thing left to check is the coconut shells...they dont increase PH do they????

Thanks...a frustrated 77Railer

 

[ed seeley]

Try leaving the water in longer or get some acid to test the decor. I have used brick cleaner which is Hydrochloric acid. If it's calcerous then it will fizz.

I run my tanks with 0dKH but I do add some minerals to raise the GH to about 3. I find my pH is very stable around 6.2-6.5, until I add CO2 which drops the pH by about 1 degree. And the fish are fine! I think pH crashes are a bit of a myth as I think something goes wrong with a tank, someone tests the water and finds the pH has dropped and immediately blames the pH 'crash'! I think it's a symptom rather than a cause!

 

[77railer]

Im not familiar enough yet to say if I agree or disagree about the ph crash..never had it happen..knock on wood...

I dont have hydro acid but I do have muratic acid...poured some on the outside of the pot and nothing happened...poured some straight on the grey inner core and nothing happened...

Poured some sand into a plastic cup and drained and drained and drained water off it...poured the acid in the cup and Im not sure I would say it is fizzing but I do see clear movement all over the place like little clear gysers are springing up from the sand...does this mean its the sand??? Or is it eating my cup...dangit..brb...

77Railer

 

[77railer]

Redid test in a glass container....when I poured the acid on the sand I again noticed the clear gysers coming up from the sand...my brain goes two directions...

1. This is it I found the source of my ph problems....
2. These clear gysers could just be trapped water rising to the top of the container because the water might be lighter than the acid Im using???crap..why do I think so much...

Now Im going a completely different direction...Im boiling some sand in water and will test the ph of the water after it cools to room temp..I figure if there is calcium in there it will dissolve and jack the ph way up....will post results after its done...

I also might use some dry sand and pour the acid on top of it and see what happens...gotta figure this out guys,lol....


77Railer

 

[77railer]

While I wait for the sand/water to cool down I am doing some more research on this sand...
According to the MSDS Sheet on Silica Sand section 9

http://www.hansoncm.biz/pdfs/tech/MSDS-Silica Sands.pdf

Silica Sand has a Ph of 7.4...Can anyone else using this tell me if they have been able to maintain a lower Ph level without massive daily water changes?

What alternatives do I have to this sand for apisto, pelvicachromis, and rams? Do they "need" sand?

77Railer

Sorry for the ramblings...

 

[dw1305]

pH etc.

Hi all,
77railer my suspicion is that the "geysers" are due to the different densities of the dilute acid solution and the water, rather than any reaction. As suggested you need to pour the acid onto the dry sand and see if bubbles of CO2 are produced from the reaction of the acid and any carbonates the sand contains.

I also think the quoted pH of the sand is probably irrelevant. Silica sand is in practice insoluble and distilled/de-ionised/R.O. water has no buffering capacity at all, it's just H+ and OH- ions. At pH 7 the ratio of H+ to OH- is 1:1, any very small addition of bases will tip the pH into the alkaline range. Because pH is a logarithmic (log10) scale away from 7, a pH of 7.4 is close to neutral, implying that the reservoir of bases is small. This is why we use a measure of buffering - TDS, KH, GH as well as pH. My tap water has a pH between 7.5 and 8, but it is hard (full of calcium carbonate ions), and very strongly buffered, this means I can add a lot of acid before they neutralise all of the buffering and the pH starts to decline.

cheers Darrel

 

[77railer]

I removed the sand and the (fake)terracotta pots from the tanks last night and did a 25% water change. Cut some 2 inch pvc pipes to replace the removed caves. My male Pelvicachromis went straight for it...will check the PH tonight once I get home...cross your fingers???


77Railer

 

[77railer]

Ok the only thing left in the water is the sponge filter, coconut cave, pvc cave, and java moss.

Is PH of 7 doable and will the fish breed at this PH?

 

[Bev N]

This is quite a puzzler isn't it. Since your on well water the only thing I can think of is there is something that is buffering your water that the water is picking up in the well or getting thru the pipes and when you have it in the tank for a little while it reverts to it's natural state.

I think a lot of the tank raised apistos will breed in that. Rams should as well. I have some apistos in tanks that are in grow out tanks that are at a ph of about 7 and they spawn without problems.

 

[Bilbo]

I aquired a conductivity meter yesturday.
I tested my supply water from holding drums and it has 9.7uS which I work out to be roughly 6.2 ppm TDS. even though I am doing 30 - 40 % changes a week my tanks though are 105uS. I might go back to bare tanks I think.

I got some sand from a old volcanic lake and I think maybe that is lifting the levels a bit.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Bilbo the levels for conductivity you give are really low, 9.7 microsiemens would be similar to the water coming out of out labs steam distillation unit. This water is still virtually unbuffered and any trace amount of carbonate will make your pH rise dramatically. If you add a weak acid source (humic acid from peat, oak leaves, bog wood, carbonic acid form CO2 etc.) your pH will fall just as dramatically, possibly (even with a weak acid) to damaging levels.

Even 107 microS is still low, I would think you should be able to adjust the pH to any level like from that as a basis. I wouldn't try and go too low (much below 6) as the lack of buffering is likely to lead to the pH crashing. If you have plants? try testing your pH in the morning, before the lights come on, I think you will be extremely surprised by the pH reading.

I'd definitely keep the substrate, as it's contribution to your tanks buffering and microbial biomass is possibly all that is keeping your water relatively stable.

cheers Darrel

 

[oldschool]

My water is well water which in my area is virtually rain water in my shallow well. My pH comes out at 5.5, 0 KH and between 30-60 us/cm depending on the time of year. I keep and breed all of my Apisto's in this water with the exception of more sensitive and demanding black water species which I allow the water to be treated with peat and or oak leaves. This water is between pH 3.9-4.5 I have never had any problems with my Apisto's in this water nor have I had pH crashes. My well water is stable pH 5.5 though in some tanks it will fall to the 4's. When I used RO water I simply didn't add anything and kept my conductivity at about 40-50 us/cm,if your water is too low consider adding a little tap water to bring your conductivity up to the desired levels.

In my experience you begin having trouble with egg eating, no breeding, laying eggs then eggs disappear, small spawns etc when we start to add so called buffers to make a stable pH. If we keep the water clean, water changes, then everything will be fine. Many people have different opinions about this and some feel very strongly about why you should add buffers. I think we simply need to find what works for you and stick with it. I have been breeding Apisto’s for many years and I find them to be very easy to breed. I run into people who have difficulties and more often then not it comes down to their water. Treat Apisto’s as you would Discus, clean water ( water changes) and soft water and you should be fine. If you are using an RO system simply adjust your waste water ratio and you should be able to bring up your conductivity to the desired range. Good luck.

 

[Bilbo]

I took the meter to a lab that I am working in for test. The MilliQ water they use is rated at 18.2MicroOhms which is 5.45uS. My meter was a little bit out, Like 20% at least and the temprature part of it was reading 28 when it was really only 19. Recalibrated and will do more tests today.
Your right that my supply water being under 10uS is very very low.