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Nijsenni

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Is there any remote chance to breed A. nijsseni in this water? These are the only apistos I could get actually in my city. I am offered three unsexed fish (U$18, shipping included). I supposed they are juvies, haven’t seen them yet. (No cac ladies for my beautiful still single cac male).

pH 7.4 (very stable) (too high I am afraid)

GH 3.5 (63ppm)

KH 2.5 (45ppm)

Conductivity 338 µS/cm (225ppm-169ppm) (Ions other than Ca+2, Mg+2and CO3-2 should account for this ≈100ppm difference, I suppose).


(The water company claims to use lime (not sure of the translation from Spanish) (CaO) to rise alkalinity after water treatment. Wouldn’t that be reflected in higher KH/GH values?)


I have a dense leaf litter, wood, plants AND I will try the microenvironment PLITC technique (“Peat Loose Inside The Caves” by Ted/Mike) (!!).
 

deliriouz

Member
Messages
52
Location
Perth, Australia
My water parameters are very similar in Perth. Had two pairs of nijsenni that never bred successfully. Maybe it was just bad luck as have bred pebas, bitaeniata, agasizii, blue steel and macmasteris in the same water.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
If my chemistry understanding is right, CaO will raise GH hardess (due to Ca++) and raise pH, but it will have very little effect on KH (alkalinity or buffering capacity). My city water plant uses NaOH to raise the pH to 8.2, but my GH and KH are both low (25 to 35 ppm). Your water is certainly harder and more alkaline than nijsseni's natural waters, but why not give it a try (especially if other Apistos are not available)? I dont think it will harm the adults. Maybe if you optimize everything else, including wood tannins/lignins and lots of live bugs to eat, they'll be able to adapt. Even if you only get a few surviving fry the 1st generation, subsequent generations may do better, like domestic strains of other soft-water fish, such as discus and rams.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Karin, when A. nijsseni originally entered the hobby many aquarist tried to breed them in harder water values. Some succeeded, but most did not. Then breeders tried to make the water more acid, in hopes that there would be more success. There was, but females were very rare if I recall correctly. Now, like Gerald, my tap water has a dGH of 3.5 and a dKh <3 - and the water department raises the pH to 7,4 with NaOH (not CaO). My tap water conductivity is <100 µS/cm. The pH drops easily with peat to pH 5,5. With peat treated tap water I reproduced A. nijsseni many times with 40/60% males/females. If there is any way to lower the pH and the conductivity somewhat, I think you can use your tap water.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Now, like Gerald, my tap water has a dGH of 3.5 and a dKh <3 - and the water department raises the pH to 7,4 with NaOH (not CaO). My tap water conductivity is <100 µS/cm. The pH drops easily with peat to pH 5,5.
Same in the UK, they add NaOH to raise the pH of the tap water. Because NaOH doesn't have any buffering capacity (all the O-H ions are in solution), pH can fall really rapidly as you add an acid (H+ donor).

Could you use rain-water?

cheers Darrel
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi guys! Very kind of you to answer. As you can expect I will give the nijssenis a chance (they are already in my tank, very tiny beauties). The lfs guy didn´t know their sexes so I bought the three of them on the phone. They are two males and one tiny female. The two males are interested in dividing territories I can see, occasionally chasing the female. She has a stripped pattern anyway (stress or other than nijsseni?). I will be attentive to any dangerous aggression appearing as two males could be problematic, right?
Thanks delirious for sharing your experience! Gerald, I see them very happy eating the sandy decomposing leaves. I´ ll try to make them as happy as possible. Mike, it looks like they are using NaOH instead of CaO right? How can I lower pH with peat (I was thinking on using empty tea bags containig some boiled peat inside the caves as I saw in one of your posts, will that help?). Darrell, city rain water I don´t know... I see myself bring home some bottles of RO water from the lab ;)(oops!).I guess this is the only way to lower conductivity, is there another option?...how much RO water it will take (I mean liters of RO to liters of tap?

After I bought these tiny guys, other LFS send me a mail offering me borellis ( I was looking them)... I am relocating the lonely male cac to the planted tank and getting a borelli pair this weekend! I ll post some pics whenever I can

thanks all! :)
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
When diluting with RO or rainwater, the decrease in conductivity and GH should be close to a linear relationship. 50% dilution = 50% reduction of cond and GH, assuming the RO or rainwater is fairly close to zero. For KH and pH the change will not be linear.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
When diluting with RO or rainwater, the decrease in conductivity and GH should be close to a linear relationship. 50% dilution = 50% reduction of cond and GH, assuming the RO or rainwater is fairly close to zero. For KH and pH the change will not be linear.

Thanks, Gerald. For sure, it is about diluting ppm, of course... So, for the beginning if I want to go down from 330 microS lets say to 150-175 I should be bringing home from the lab down on the bus almost 30-35 liters of RO water!!! (For the 70L tank) oops... But, then for the 20-30 percent weekly WC I should only bring around 10L ... Kind of. Oh my... I will think about it. Not very practical I think... I should try small scale at the lab and measure pH, conductivity, etc just to check possible values.



Will you explain me how to quote somebody? Thanks.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
The micro environment method (designed by Ted Judy for more demanding Pelvicachromis species) certainly worked for me with A. cf. payaminonis (Pantoja). This species is another nijsseni-group species, so it is definitely worth a try. I used loose sphagnum moss peat. Most pet stores that sell products for pet reptiles and frogs sell it. I just filled half of a large cave with moss. I don't think you need to worry about tea bags. They will not hold enough peat to be much use.

May I suggest an experiment with your tap water? Try to circulate tap water over a layer of peat for a few day. Something like an undergravel filter plate would do, or even running water from a power filter over a mesh bag of peat should work. Compare the raw tap water values with those of the treated water values. Hopefully you will see a lower pH and hardness.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Great Micke, I will... I have sphagnum at home as I use it for the grindal culture. I will put some in the cave and do what you suggest with some tap water. I will boil it first. On the other hand... I have the suspition (as MickeM make me think) that may be they are baenschi instead of nijsseni. I will make some pics. The bigger male is chassing the other one and the female which is hiding. may be I keep the smalles male?
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I used loose sphagnum moss peat. .....May I suggest an experiment with your tap water? Try to circulate tap water over a layer of peat for a few day.
<"Sphagnum moss or sphagnum peat"> from an <"ombrotrophic mire"> is definitely the substance you want. It has <"antimicrobial properties">, and also a high CEC, with the exchange sites initially <"filled with H+ ions">.

Mike's idea is a good one, but because you work in a lab. could you just titrate your tap water against a weak acid using a burette? I know it is an old fashioned method, but it would be quicker and give you a good idea of the total alkalinity, and whether peat treatment is likely to be successful.

cheers Darrel
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Yes Darrel, I suppose I could do it… BTW I was adding small amounts of the water I boiled the peat in (5ml) to a glass of tap water (250ml) and pH drop from 7.4 to 7.0…

Thanks for the paper and the whole info! I let you know whenever I do the titration.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I wouldn't boil the peat before putting it in the cave. You will lose most of the tannins that soften and acidify the water, as you have seen in your test. If you feel you need to sterilize it first, just moisten it and put in a microwave oven for a minute or 2.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
ok Mike. I´ll do the microwave then... it was kind of messy to put the moss in the caves I can tell. I hoppe it is not a problem to make the water messy for a while.
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
Great Micke, I will... I have sphagnum at home as I use it for the grindal culture. I will put some in the cave and do what you suggest with some tap water. I will boil it first. On the other hand... I have the suspition (as MickeM make me think) that may be they are baenschi instead of nijsseni. I will make some pics. The bigger male is chassing the other one and the female which is hiding. may be I keep the smalles male?

Hi Karin + all..

Your males are not Apistogramma baenschi for sure!! .. nor is the female I guess.:)
As a comment to the pic that you mailed to me earlier.. I meant that the young female you have looks a little too "striped/stripey" to be a female of
the "classic/ordinary" Apistogramma nijsseni.. she was/is reminding me more of a baenschi female..
However.. !! The ones I kept 20-25 years ago were all fully grown+ colored-up fishes.... these are not!! (Yet!!;))
..I never saw a lot of stripes/markings on the females I had back then...
And also... there are some other/ similar species( nijsseni-complex) available today.. compared to what I could buy in the early 1990`s..!!
(Time flies...:D!!)

Cheers,
Micke
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
OK, I see your problem. You use ground sphagnum peat. I used the long strand sphagnum peat used for reptile/amphibian habitats. It's a lot less messy. Both should work.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi Micke and Mike and all!! Thanks for all your amazing help!

Micke, as you suggested me in your kind mails I looked at pictures of the nijsseni-complex apistos and you are absolutely right, the females don’t usually look as strippey as mine! Anyway the males look just as the ones I have got (I move one of them to the planted tank as we discuss earlier with you and things are really calm for now). So good to know they are nijsseni in the end, thanks! You were of great help the other day. And yes… but I rather say that time swims!!:);):(

Mike the pH inside one of the caves (I took out one to change boiled peat for microwaved one!!) was 6.4!!! BUT I did a mess! Yes I am using the king of ground peat, now I know for next time. But it definitively worked!!:rolleyes:

Darrel, the titration will wait for the moment but I let you know in case I do it! Thanks for the amazing info!

Got the borellis today, small guys, F0 wild caught from Corrientes (saw the post from Miguel)…they might be easier, just Parana river and not Amazon basin!

Cheers
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi all!

OK! This is the small-scale experiment: around 3L of tap water in a small tank, with an undergravel plate filter driven by an air pump and 2-3 cm of Sphagnum ground peat for 4 days.

These are the readings:

pH yellow by the bromothymol blue standard aquarium kit (lower than 6.0)!!

KH 0!

GH 2-3!

So the peat really does its job. The question for me now is how much of this water should I start using safely for the fish in water changes? (I’ll do often pH readings during water change).

I will measure TDS of a water sample tomorrow.
 

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dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I'd just change about 20% of the tank volume, I'm pretty sure that won't worry the fish.

The pH of the peat treated water should be lower, but don't worry too much about the actual value, measure the TDS (conductivity really) of the peat treated water, this will give you a datum for the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) of the peat. "Regani" gives a proper explanation here about chelation etc.: <"700 litre ....">

As the peat becomes exhausted, the TDS value should rise once all the H+ ions are exchanged for more strongly bound multivalent ions (via the <"lyotropic series">) like Ca++.

You may be able to tell from the tint of the water (if your peat is partially decomposed, it doesn't work as well with sphagnum moss). The peat treated water will become lighter in colour (less black tea like) as the peat is exhausted.

Because it is "exchange" once the exchange sites are filled with Ca++ ions etc, the peat won't have any more softening, or acidifying, effect at this point.

cheers Darrel
 

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