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New Cycling Product

Randall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Dear Forum Members,

Anticipated sometime in December, 2002, Marineland Labs is expected to roll out a new "miracle" product that, the manufacturer claims, is supposed to cycle new aquarium setups in 24 hours. With their new brand Bio-Spira, Marineland Labs claims to have identified and isolated the actual nitrifying bacteria responsible for the oxidation of ammonia and nitrite and further claims that fish may be added to the new system immediately.

Initially, Bio-Spira is expected to be carried by the smaller, boutique type retailers only.

Thank you.

Randall Kohn
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
this sounds good! i know that there are cultures that you can send away for that actually work, but they are expensive. i hope this works at a reasonable price.

rick
 

Neil

New Member
I wonder if baceria has a slightly different role in water with greatly differing qualities. Is it the same bacteria that breaks down ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate in very acidic water (4pH) and very alkaline (9pH) water?
 

farm41

New Member
5 Year Member
How can living bacteria be stored in a bottle?

I've never tried any of the bottled concoctions that claim to cycle a tank, is this just one more marketing gimmick?

Usually if it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true.
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
jeff, you are a sceptic. :lol:

i bought a bottle of cycle, when i didn't know any better. but you gotta admit, it sounds like it could work. that's why they keep selling it, i guess. one thing is for sure, it work better than buying more fish when the filter isn't keeping up as it is.

rick
 

Randall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Nitrogen Cycling

Gentlemen:

For years now it has been assumed that the bacteria responsible for oxidizing ammonia and nitrite were of the genera nitrosommas and nitrobacter. More recently, however, doubt has been cast on this once commonly believed assumption. If Marineland labs is true to their claim and have identified and isolated the actual oxidizing bacteria, then this is a product that I would like to try. When it is available, we might conduct a little experiment together. As I see it, we need three virgin tank set ups: one as a control, one using the new Marineland Lab product and one using a currently existing competitor's product. Assuming the same tank size, the same filtration, similar water chemistry and temperature, with the same species of fish and the same number of them, following the respective manufacturer's instructions, we can count the days until ammonia and nitrate levels come up at zero and compare our notes at the end. I figure a four-week term ought to do it.

I'll purchase the new product and handle that tank of three. Would either of you two gentlemen care to handle the others?

Thank you.

Randall Kohn
 

farm41

New Member
5 Year Member
Randall,

I do like to keep up on the new technology, please, if you can, provide a link to the new technology casting doubt on what has been the standard cycling basics. Shortcuts are few and far between, but not impossible.

Please forgive my skepticism, there have been many claims from reputable companies before.
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
matt (sorry about that...) it has been reported lately that the 'cycling basics' we all 'know' have indeed been cast in doubt. it is surprising to me that cycle is still being sold.

randall, if his product works, it will be a good thing. we'll see. i'm not sure that you need a whole bunch of tanks to prove that this works in one day.

rick
 

Scooter

New Member
5 Year Member
Marineland Labs had a booth at this year's ACA in Atlanta in which they offered a catalog introducing their new life science system products (foods, bacteria, water conditioner, etc). It contains some interesting information about Bio-Spira, including an endorsement by Dr. Paul Loiselle himself. They also claim the product as been in use for over a year and half by several "public aquariums and aquaculture facilities." I'm usually a little skeptical, but I would love to see such a successful product that would hopefully reduce the use (sacrifice) of live fish for cycling.
 

Richgrenfell

Member
5 Year Member
I haven't had to cycle a tank in at least 10 years. I just keep extra sponge filters running in my mature tanks. When i set up the new one I use water from the mature tanks to make up at least 2/3 of the tank volume, add a mature sponge, and viola! A brand spankin' new cycled tank! :wink:

Rich
 

Scooter

New Member
5 Year Member
I would suspect that your method is the one employed by most experienced fish keepers when setting up new tanks. That new Bio Spira is probably geared more toward newbies and those that either have an emergency or don't have the added luxury of colonized media lying around.
 

Z Man

New Member
5 Year Member
I'm with Rich on this one. When I started over 20 years ago nobody ever heard of Cycling. I have recieved many negative remarks on my 'cycling' article on my website but way back then we just filled a tank and put fish in the next day. I know it was wrong but that's all anybody ever did. We didn't loose fish like a lot of people say they do today. Maybe back then they didn't put all that junk in the water before it reached us either. I still start a 'new' set-up with 50% water from an established tank and fill the balance with water. Now with this next statement I surely am going to start a huge negative response. "I haven't used any type of de-chlorinator or additive in any of my tanks in well over 10 years!"
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
z-man, if someone who has had constant problems with their fish said that, then yes, they would probably be advised differently. but when a person has bred as many fish as you have, well, who the heck am i to tell YOU what the best way is.

i have always tried to ensure a cycled filter, or if not, done water changes to keep the amm and nitrite levels down to acceptable levels. i have lost fish while trying to cycle tanks, and i am sure that it was due to amm products. that is why all of my tanks have enough media to split, to get another tank running immediately, and always use filters with 'splittable' media. (like f/i aquaclears and one corner box filter.)

i consider this to be prudent, and have had good results this way. i don't fool around with my good results. i also use fishless cycling when i have good advance notice on receiving fish, so i can have clean media for them. although, most of my recent additions have been large numbers of baby discus. and you would not get away fooling around with overstocked tanks full of over-fed baby discus, that i know for sure.

rick
 

tjudy

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
:)

An earlier post (from Niel I think) asked about the differences between the bacteria that might live at different water parameters. Randall mentioned that there is some debate about the role of Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, and that there is another type that may be involved...

Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are genera, not species. There are many types bacteria that fall into those genera. I think that it is highly likely that different areas fo the world have different species of bacteria.

Bacteria are also capable of very rapid genetic change (at the population level) due to their very fast reproductive cycle. Even minor changes in water parameters can have a negative effect on bacteria populations, but the result might be unnoticeable due to the ability for a bacteria populations ability to bounce back. If 50% of a population died due to some chemical event, the remaining 50% could double again in only a few hours... if not sooner!!!

Bacteria fall under the heading 'some of the coolest things on Earth' in my book. Did you know that a bacteria can grow a tube, called a pilli, from itself to another bacteria several cell lengths away, and then pass a specific gene (for antibiotic resistance, for example) down that tube to the bacteria that the tube grew to? That means that: bacteria can sense teh presence of another bacteria without touching (chemical messages), communicate (likely chemically) to determine what gene the other cell needs, and then categorically choose a specific piece fo DNA (a plasmid) to send over. That would be like a person who is immune to the common cold reaching out to you and saying 'here... have a new immunity that you do not have.' That os just too cool.... and scary. 8O
 

Neil

New Member
Ted,
Extremely interesting! "Scary" 8O is an understatement. Bacteria probably has the mechanisms to survive in the the most hostile environments. However, I have heard that they either do not function or die completely at a certain pH (sat 4.5). I now wonder if different bacteria altogether have evolved and are possibly serving much the same purpose under different circumstances!? their role probably would be altered because, I think, the nitrification process is different at that low a pH as well.
By the way, it is nice to have someone who can lend a scientific perspective to some of thes questions. Thanks!
Neil
 

tjudy

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
:)

Thanks!

Most bacteria can be forced into a dormancy, which is the premise behind the cycling products; however, I know that doing that to the nitrogen feeding genera has never been easy. Back when Fritzyme was the only product available, it had a rather short shelf life.

Neil raises an interesting point regarding 'new species' of bacteria. We might have bacteria in our tanks that have evolved totally in 'captivity'. Most aquaria are 'generalized' ecosystems. I mean by this that we operate them in rather median parameters: constant temp, stable pH, stable hardness, stable bioload, etc. This creates the opportunity for bacteria to become rather refined in the parameters they need. If we get a wild fish that is carrying a bacteria load in its gut, that species may not survive the tank conditions.

Come to think of it, we are doing that to our fish strains as well aren't we? Anyone ever set up their fishrooms to simulate muddy runoff or extreme dry seasons (other than for killifish I mean.. :wink: )?
 

aspen

Active Member
5 Year Member
great posts ted!

it is my contention, that tank beeding fish to sustain a species beyond extinction is a waste of time. after some time in a tank, it is unlikely that any of the fish could be returned to the wild, mainly due to the behavioural aspects of fish that have never learned where the best places to 'fish' are. also, as you say, generations of keeping fish in water that has no relation to their native waters, likely creates fish that have none of the native fauna in their digestive tracts, or in their slime coat and esp no natural ability to fight the diseases found in their natural environment.

how long would it take people to develop an ability to drink the water in mexico, if they had grown up where water is 'nice and clean'?

we keep fish, because we like to see them swimming around in our tanks- period. it is a nice hobby, but not a means of extending species beyond extinction, imo, unless you are pumping the amazon through your tanks.

rick
 

tjudy

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
:D

HERE! HERE! I agree. I also hunt, but have never been the type of person to try to defend that pastime by saying 'I do it for food' (though I do eat everything I kill). The point is that we do all our 'pastimes' for fun.

Species maintenance is a noble cause, regardless of the motivation. True, it is not likely that we could ever return a fish to the wild; however, there is value to maintaining fish in captivity that no longer have a place in wild of their own. For example... Lake Victoria cichlids, southeastern USA darters, or any other fish from any other place where the natural habitat is irreparably damaged. Species 'maintenance' can be just that... with no intent to release. I would like to crack Botia sidthimunki... if I can ever get any more of them that is....

:cry:
 
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