Need help figuring out what killed my female apistogramma cacatuoide

[deeebra]

Hi. I'm hoping someone can help me figure out what killed my fish. I purchased a male/female pair of apisto cacas about 6 weeks ago and they seemed to be doing fine. But just recently the female started acting differently, not out and about, but hiding either in the pot I placed there for breeding or under plants. I was hoping she was about to lay eggs, but last night she didn't come out to eat, and this afternoon I found her dead. I took some pics. Her eyes seem larger diameter and black, and there appears to be blood under her gills and around her eyes. All the other fish seem fine. Water chemistry seems fine:

• Temp 78.2
• Ph 6.8
• Ammonia .25ppm
• Nitrite 0ppm
• Nitrate 5.0ppm

I'm attaching some pics. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

 

[MacZ]

Sorry for your loss.

Sadly, in most cases except the few coincidences where the fish had an obvious sickness or injury it is almost impossible to determine the cause of death of a fish.
If the eyes are enlarged (I can't tell by the pictures, sorry.) this could be a symptom called popeye, which is mostly associated with nonspecific bacterial infections. Such an infection is most often the result of the wholesalers and retailer using high amounts of medication to keep all fish alive until they are bought. When arriving in a home aquarium these fish have no working immunesystem and so they succumb to normally harmless and omnipresent bacteria.
Meds would only help temporarily, so besides frequent high volume waterchanges for a week or two, and adding indian almond leaves and alder cones there wouldn't have been much to do about it.

Here some questions to answer to optimize the conditions to minimize possible future losses.
Was she chased a lot by the male? What tank size (volume and dimensions)? Is the tank structured correctly? Other tankmates? What do you feed? What's the waterchange/maintenance schedule? Do you know GH and KH?

 

[deeebra]

Thank you for getting back to me. Interesting about how you explained that fish can succumb to normally harmless and omnipresent bacteria. I'm wondering now if the accident I had when transferring her from her transport bag into the tank (she was "lost" and out of water for probably 10 minutes - horrible) stressed her out, making it hard for her to fight the bacteria (but that was 6 weeks ago). Why the Indian almond leaves and alder cones? Here are answers to your questions:

>She wasn't chased much, but you could tell the male was interested
>I have a 10 gal planted tank with soil substrate by JBJ: https://www.amazon.com/JBJ-Rimless-Desktop-Aquarium-RL-10-FP/dp/B01DB9AN26
>I currently have 5 long finned zebra danios, 11 ember tetras, 1 male apisto caca, 1 bladder snail
>I feed them some of each of these: Sera ImmunPro mini and NutiDiet Tropical, and occasionally blood worms. I don't feed on Sundays
>I do a 3-4g water change/cleaning (where I syphon from the bottom) every 2-3 weeks, and never let nitrates get above 7.5ppm
>I use Prime Water Conditioner to treat the new water, and I add Flourish Excel periodically for the plants
>I've never tested the hardness of the water, but I know we have hard water
>I currently have a lot of brown algae on the rocks and plants that I need to deal with - suspect high phosphate levels. Ordered a phosphate test kit and PhosGuard. From what I understand though, I don't think this harms the fish

Thanks for your help!

 

[MacZ]

Thank you for getting back to me. Interesting about how you explained that fish can succumb to normally harmless and omnipresent bacteria. I'm wondering now if the accident I had when transferring her from her transport bag into the tank (she was "lost" and out of water for probably 10 minutes - horrible) stressed her out, making it hard for her to fight the bacteria (but that was 6 weeks ago). Why the Indian almond leaves and alder cones?

I guess the fish was either yet stressed more in the tank than expected or came with a weakened system.
The leaves and cones have antibacterial properties and help bringing the water to optimal condition.

>I have a 10 gal planted tank with soil substrate by JBJ: https://www.amazon.com/JBJ-Rimless-Desktop-Aquarium-RL-10-FP/dp/B01DB9AN26

Soil is one of the worst substrates for Apistos, sand would be a good alternative. 10 gallon is small for a pair of Apistogramma long term. Ok as a breeding tank with the option to move the male to another tank. I would not replace the female and leave the male alone.https://www.amazon.com/JBJ-Rimless-Desktop-Aquarium-RL-10-FP/dp/B01DB9AN26

>I currently have 5 long finned zebra danios, 11 ember tetras, 1 male apisto caca, 1 bladder snail

Ok... this is a dense stocking. The bladder snail will not stay alone for long. I would eventually rehome the danios, the tetras a re a great combination with a single Apistogramma.

>I feed them some of each of these: Sera ImmunPro mini and NutiDiet Tropical, and occasionally blood worms. I don't feed on Sundays

Bloodworms can sometimes be bad for Apistogramma. Nobody knows why, many feed them without problems. Give a little variety: Daphnia, white mosquito larvae, artemia. Flakes can lead to gulping air, would use them and then not buy more.

>I do a 3-4g water change/cleaning (where I syphon from the bottom) every 2-3 weeks, and never let nitrates get above 7.5ppm

Maybe up the waterchange schedule to 50% weekly.

>I use Prime Water Conditioner to treat the new water, and I add Flourish Excel periodically for the plants

Conditioner is fine, guess your water comes from the tap chlorinated. Flourish can be detrimental, the stuff is mostly used as an algaecide and not for actual fertilizing purposes. Instead look for a good micronutrient fertilizer.

>I've never tested the hardness of the water, but I know we have hard water

When keeping Apistogramma I can only recommend knowing. Test strips are absolutely sufficient to test.

>I currently have a lot of brown algae on the rocks and plants that I need to deal with - suspect high phosphate levels. Ordered a phosphate test kit and PhosGuard. From what I understand though, I don't think this harms the fish

I would only use the test kit first and not use PhosGuard. Instead here also upping the waterchanges helps.

Depending on how long the tank is running the algae are possibly within the normal line of events. As a beginner Apistokeeper you should know: The water has to be pristine, the tank can have centimeters of mulm on the bottom. Leaf litter, roots, wood... all natural material that breaks down and builds up a healthy layer of mulm. Not so good on soil though.
Apistogramma are in any case not really the best fish to keep in a standard planted tank.

 

[deeebra]

Thank you for your advice - very helpful! I'll start 50% weekly water changes, eventually change their food, stop the Flourish, start a micronutrient fertilizer

>Once I test the hardness of the water, what do I do with the information?
>Do you think I should remove the danios because there are too many fish in the tank, or for some other reason?
>Why no new female apisto - tank too small?
>Are you recommending not using the PhosGuard because I should be able to get the phosphate levels under control with weekly 50% water changes or for some other reason?

 

[yukondog]

>Do you think I should remove the danios because there are too many fish in the tank, or for some other reason?

Too many fish and there very active, apisto's like calm tanks.

>Why no new female apisto - tank too small?

IMO yes, Cacs. get fair size for a dwarf cichlid but if only to breed and remove the male after fry I have had good luck, but stay on top of your water changes.

 

[MacZ]

Thank you for your advice

You're welcome!

I'll start 50% weekly water changes, eventually change their food, stop the Flourish, start a micronutrient fertilizer

Good, I should add: The micronutrients may also not be necessary. So maybe first try without using anything and look how the plants do.

>Once I test the hardness of the water, what do I do with the information?

If the readings are way off from what the fish usually like you may or may not optimize (optional in most cases). In any case it's always good to know that information, especially with Apistos many problems can come from wrong water parameters. Luckily A. cacatuoides are relatively adaptable as they are most often domestic strains. Still, knowing the readings may become vital at one point.

>Do you think I should remove the danios because there are too many fish in the tank, or for some other reason?

As yukondog says: Apistos prefer the company of fish, that are not as active swimmers plus you are indeed overstocked.
In an ideal world I would even cut the population of ember tetras in half.

>Why no new female apisto - tank too small?

Yes. Very much. Even with perfectly build structures and hiding spots the male will not leave her alone in a tank that size. This can lead to lethal stress levels.

>Are you recommending not using the PhosGuard because I should be able to get the phosphate levels under control with weekly 50% water changes or for some other reason?

First and foremost because it can be done with a cheaper and easier method (namely waterchanges) and secondly PhosGuard is controversial as is, as it seems to remove more than just phosphates.
Whenever using chemical filtration it can quickly lead to imbalances because the filtermedia are not as selective as the manufacturers want you to believe. Usually a tank should only run on mechanical (sponges and filterfloss) and biological (biomedia, beneficial bacteria) filtration. Chemical (activated carbon) filtration is only a temporary option. With carbon one can remove residual medication for example, but it also removes nutrients and good stuff like tannins from the water.

 

[deeebra]

Thank you both for the good advice.

 

[MacZ]

You're welcome!

 

[deeebra]

Me again. Tested phosphate levels (0) and did the 50% water change. Just realized now that one of my danios isn't acting normal. Resting on the bottom some and has some marks on his skin. All the other danios seem fine, although one might have a super small version of these marks on his skin (but hard to tell). Do you happen to know what this is? Thank you.

 

[MacZ]

If you don't mind, I refer you to Fishlore.
Over there you find a lot of people that are on the forum to help and honestly, there are generally more people.
The community here is much smaller and most are here for the cichlids.