McMasteri hiding

[vie]

Hi,
I attempted to introduce one male and two female Mcmasteri into my 20 g community tank. The male was sick and died within a week. One of the two females turned into a terrible bully to the other female but she was beautiful and always out. Still, I wanted a male so I returned the females to my lfs and got a male. The male is beautiful too. Problem is, he hides in my caves most of the time. I do have a female betta in the tank. She challenged the female apisto I had but pretty much left her alone. The male on the other hand, she seems to go after more but still not that much. He seems to be doing okay. He comes out to feed and eats well but then retreats back into his cave. Is this normal behavior or do I have to do something with the betta? I've had her for months and she was never really a problem before. Or will the male apisto mature and hold his own at some point?

 

[Mike Wise]

My guess is that he is unsure about the new tank. He should get more comfortable and show himself more when he knows all of the good hiding places. I hope you understand that adding a non-quarantined fish to an established community aquarium in dangerous health-wise.

 

[vie]

My guess is that he is unsure about the new tank. He should get more comfortable and show himself more when he knows all of the good hiding places. I hope you understand that adding a non-quarantined fish to an established community aquarium in dangerous health-wise.

I do. I generally only buy from a trusted source. The sick male came from someone online who I believe used another breeder. Unfortunately, I didn't have a hospital tank set up when I got him. Fortunately, no one else got sick. And truthfully, I'm not sure he was even sick. The female was such a bully, I think she may have killed him. That is why I am watching my current apisto so carefully. I don't want to see aggression that would cause him to die.

 

[MacZ]

And truthfully, I'm not sure he was even sick. The female was such a bully, I think she may have killed him. That is why I am watching my current apisto so carefully. I don't want to see aggression that would cause him to die.

And this is why you should have a second tank at hand to move a specimen or two in such cases. She may not have killed him directly, but indirectly by keeping him from feeding, chasing him and generally just putting stress on him. That usually makes the immunesystem crash and then fish succumb to sickness.

 

[vie]

You are right. This was my first foray into this type of cichlid keeping. I had discus for years but they have very different personalities.

 

[MacZ]

In short: Discus are the least cichlid behaving cichlids. All the others can be little (or actual) monsters.

 

[vie]

For what it's worth, the aggression didn't seem that bad at the time. I did remove the females (had to actually pay a service $125 because I just couldn't catch that bully!) once I saw that I couldn't keep a male with them. (The one female did harass a second male to death. Once I got her out, it was too late. He only lived two more days.)

 

[MacZ]

A 20 is really cramped in my experience. It's important to give it the right structure and even then, I found, it doesn't work out every time. Hence I decided my 20g biotope-tank will only house one specimen at one time, when it comes to Apistogramma. Maybe smaller and more peaceful genera like Dicrossus or Nannacara might work in a 20 long term.

 

[vie]

A 20 is really cramped in my experience. It's important to give it the right structure and even then, I found, it doesn't work out every time. Hence I decided my 20g biotope-tank will only house one specimen at one time, when it comes to Apistogramma. Maybe smaller and more peaceful genera like Dicrossus or Nannacara might work in a 20 long term.

I agree. I only have the single male in the tank. Sadly, he hides more than he is out. I put in three caves and he spends most of his time in them. The female I removed was really gregarious and out all the time and she was very pretty, but obviously not as showy as the male. All that showiness is worthless when he hides all of the time! I should have kept the single female. She was really something. I know she went to a nice 30 gal tank so at least I don't feel bad about that. The service who removed her showed me a pic. Tho other female went back to my lfs. He's been in my tank about two weeks so I'm hoping he develops some courage eventually.

 

[vie]

Here she is in her new home. I never knew a tougher fish with more personality. Apistos are very interesting if not a little frustrating!

 

[MacZ]

I doubt this is a female. The long dorsal and anal fins scream male.

 

[yukondog]

I think so also, but defer to the experts.

 

[vie]

I doubt this is a female. The long dorsal and anal fins scream male.

That may explain the aggression but she didn't have any of the red coloring typical of the males other than her tail. Maybe she was a hermaphrodite Was sold to me as a female but the breeder may not have known since she came as a younger fish though not necessarily a juvenile. Whole thing is tragic as I would never have tried keeping two males in my tank.

 

[MacZ]

That may explain the aggression but she didn't have any of the red coloring typical of the males other than her tail. Maybe she was a hermaphrodite Was sold to me as a female but the breeder may not have known since she came as a younger fish though not necessarily a juvenile. Whole thing is tragic as I would never have tried keeping two males in my tank.

Also doubt it's a hermaphrodite either. Having looked around some more, I am very sure it's a male. The colouration can be very variable in that species and hybrids of tankbred lines with wild type fish or other breeding lines can lead to unexpected colouration.

 

[vie]

I was joking about the hermaphrodite thing. But her/his coloration was unusual so you may be right. When dealing with apistos, it's important to recognize the difference in the sexes. I learned at the expense of two fish. I feel bad about it but I was deferring to the breeder who should have told me about the lack of clarity regarding sex. Too bad fish, like other exotic pets, are often handled like commodities only.

 

[Mike Wise]

Pretty sure it is a male. One does not see fin extensions like this on females. Female macs almost always show a large amount of black pigment on the ventral fins, too.

 

[vie]

Okay, so she was probably a he. Why would he attack the female? Is that typical with apistos unless they pair up?

 

[MacZ]

What I write now may vary a bit by species, but it fits the bill for most available species:

A male has a bigger territory than the females and so his territory can encompass several smaller female territories.
The females show readiness for spawning by colouring up in bright yellow with black markings. If a female hasn't got this colouration, she is chased away by the male, making room in his territory for another female or looking for a receptive one. While in nature the females can avoid the male and the males in turn can even have bigger territories, a tank has only so much space. So in a too small tank with not enough hiding spots it is very possible that a female is chased and attacked all the time as long as she is not in spawning mode. If an animal, be it male or female is constantly in one corner (especially upper corners) the tank is too small and the likelyhood the fish is outright killed (Rather rare, I hear, sadly had the case once) or succumbs to disease from stress is high (the likelier scenario). That's when it's best to remove the losing fish.

A 20 long is definitely best suited for species that tend more to the paired side of behaviour and not the polygamous side, but even then it can be too cramped. I find it's best to have a second tank ready or to keep only a male (or female if preferred) alone with some tetras.

But now finding that the supposed female is a male, a group of males was expected to not end well.

 

[anewbie]

I've found my cockatoo to be mostly peaceful. I have 3 males and a female in a 29 (these are left over fish from a bunch of frys I purchased and I have no where else to put them); one of hte male is a runt and will likely die in another year (not just small but deformities around the mouth; one is a full size male and one is a younger full size male; the female is large). They all pretty much get along - the full size male (I had him in the 120 for a while) chased the runt for 1/4 of a day when i moved him to the 29 but since then he has settled down and leaves it alone (this was about 40 days ago).
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My hongsloi are also pretty peaceful - i have 2 males and a female and the 4th is likely a large female - they were siblings which might explain things. The dominant male will chase the less dominant male when the female lays eggs (as she did last night) but otherwise he leaves it alone. The two males are nearly the same size - one is all gold the other has red streak - these are in a 29 with a bunch of small pleco, kuhli and the nij. female (i posted a while ago about the male getting droopy and eventually died) - this is a different 29 than the one above. The tank has a lot of hiding places and caves (really just driftwood with substrate dug away underneath by the fishes).
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Anyway that has been my experience - i've read the mcmasteri complex is more aggressive so avoided those.

 

[vie]

I have to assume there is a wide variety of behaviors among the different apistos. Even now, with just the single male Mcmasteri, my female betta, who pretty much left everyone alone, is chasing him around and causing him to hide. He doesn't seem that stressed, though. He eats well and I gave him a lot of hiding places but the aggression still bothers me. The other male/female I had wasn't bothered by the betta at all. I think he was just a very "confident" little fish.
This whole experience has taught me a lot but it's also a disappointment because now I have a male I rarely see and not much else. I would take the betta out but I've had her a while and I don't think anyone would want her. I have other tanks but they have bettas in them already.