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ID Apistogramma viejita?

Panta rhei

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25
Hi,
it has been sold as Apistogramma Viejita II Rio Meta Wild but usual viejita/macmasteri dilemma... :confused:
What do you think?

a.viejita.3.jpg

a.viejita.4.jpg

a.viejita.5.jpg
 

Mike Wise

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Big old male A. macmasteri. A. viejita never develop tips on the caudal fin. It definitely isn't the original "A. viejita color form II" (=A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat var. Rotflecken/Red-flecks) either.
 

Rolo

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415
Location
Bremen, Germany
Hi,

Why shouldn't A. viejita develop tips?
Usually A. macmasteri has a round caudal, too but meanwhile we know it better.

...but the dark red seam in the dorsal fin makes me guess, that this fish IS the colour form I (= Rotsaum) of A. viejita.

regards,
Rolo
 

Mike Wise

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I guess it could develop tips, but none of the Type I/Rotsaum photos that I have seen every show tips. These photos include fully mature males; all have round caudals. There are populations of A. macmasteri that have narrow red edges on the dorsal fin, but none as broad as seen on A. viejita. I think what makes me think that this is A. macmasteri, instead of A. viejita, is the (greater) depth of the body and the (larger) size of the caudal spot. Of course, I can be wrong - just ask my wife!:)
 

dpien

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5 Year Member
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56
Location
Manchester, UK
Interesting to come across this id dilemma again. A few years ago I also posted a pic of my wild A. 'viejita' male on here - here is the thread: http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-viejita-or-macmasteri-please-help.10242/

I had only one male and three females (from the same shipment from Colombia).

Mike id'd it as A. macmasteri 'red shoulder' (see thread link above).

This strain also had a very distinctive continuous red BORDER to the dorsal fin, and with age the dorsal and anal fins started extending beyond the tail fin.

What I found even more interesting was that the F1 males I obtained (it was very male biased spawn and I obtained only 1 brood from them), when they displayed to each other, exhibited that prominent dark lateral (or abdominal) blotch (as in the classic photo of the original A. viejita - as also pictured in the Datz book). I'm not sure macmasteri's kind of 'change colour' like this (???) - it's quite something to see!

It would be so great if an ichthyologist (eg. Sven Kullander himself ! ) could one day write a publication on this interesting species complex again, perhaps highlighting the differences amongst its members clearly...

If the wilds of which you posted a video on here, were mine, I'd wait until they're happily settled in and in great health, then observe them very closely as they display to each other, and take as many pics and vdeo's as possible. The more info published on this macmasteri group (by whoever comes across wilds), the better, in my opinion...
 

dpien

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
56
Location
Manchester, UK
Interesting to come across this id dilemma again. A few years ago I also posted a pic of my wild A. 'viejita' male on here - here is the thread: http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-viejita-or-macmasteri-please-help.10242/

I had only one male and three females (from the same shipment from Colombia).

Mike id'd it as A. macmasteri 'red shoulder' (see thread link above).

This strain also had a very distinctive continuous red BORDER to the dorsal fin, and with age the dorsal and anal fins started extending beyond the tail fin.

What I found even more interesting was that the F1 males I obtained (it was very male biased spawn and I obtained only 1 brood from them), when they displayed to each other, exhibited that prominent dark lateral (or abdominal) blotch (as in the classic photo of the original A. viejita - as also pictured in the Datz book). I'm not sure macmasteri's kind of 'change colour' like this (???) - it's quite something to see!

It would be so great if an ichthyologist (eg. Sven Kullander himself ! ) could one day write a publication on this interesting species complex again, perhaps highlighting the differences amongst its members clearly...

If the wilds of which you posted a video on here, were mine, I'd wait until they're happily settled in and in great health, then observe them very closely as they display to each other, and take as many pics and vdeo's as possible. The more info published on this macmasteri group (by whoever comes across wilds), the better, in my opinion...
 

Mike Wise

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Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
From what I understand, all of the macmasteri-complex species will display this pattern to some extent. I think too much emphasis is placed on colors most hobbyists and not enough on the pattern of dark markings on the body, the body shape, and finnage. Kullander's 1979 descriptions of A. macmasteri and A. viejita discusses these features in detail. Once you see the true A. viejita, it's not that difficult to separate from A. macmasteri.
 

dpien

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
56
Location
Manchester, UK
On Tom C's site, there's another picture of what appears to be a wild A. viejita specimen, apparently imported as a contaminant (note the dark blotch - a dark marking - again):

http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?pageid=53

Very interesting! My F1's looked exactly like that when displaying, but I guess I would've had to kill and dissect one of them if I wanted to compare each detail with Kullander's original species description.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
On Tom C's site, there's another picture of what appears to be a wild A. viejita specimen, apparently imported as a contaminant (note the dark blotch - a dark marking - again):

This is not a dark marking like the other diagnostic dark markings. It is a behavioral marking that normally is not saved on preserved specimens.
 

Rolo

Active Member
5 Year Member
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415
Location
Bremen, Germany
Hi Mike,

For me, they still look like the same fish as this one:

apistogramma_viejita_1.jpg


And this form is confirmed as A. viejita (I), aka "Rotsaum"-Apistogramma, even by you.

So, I can't see obvious differences. In my eyes, the Panta Rhei fishes seems to be just older males of the same form.

regards,
Rolo
 

Mike Wise

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Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Rolo, did your Rotsaum ever develop tips at the top or bottom of the caudal fin? Did they ever become as robust (bullig) and deep-bodied/high-backed as Panta Rhei's fish? I wish his fish truly were A. viejita, but everything I see in the photos indicate A. macmasteri.
 

Rolo

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
415
Location
Bremen, Germany
Rolo, did your Rotsaum ever develop tips at the top or bottom of the caudal fin? Did they ever become as robust (bullig) and deep-bodied/high-backed as Panta Rhei's fish? I wish his fish truly were A. viejita, but everything I see in the photos indicate A. macmasteri.

No, they didn't! But unfortunately mine didn't became very old. The Panta Rhei fishes seem to be quite old in my eyes.
I have never seen an old, big, adult Rotsaum male. Therefore I can't exclude, that it will develop tips and a robust body, but I could imagine that, if they grew up in good conditions. Have you ever seen such big old males to be sure?

On the other hand I have never seen such a well-defined red dorsal seam at A. macmasteri. This I only know from A. sp. Rotsaum.

Well, if these fishes are really A. macmasteri, we should seriously rethink, if A. viejita and A. macmasteri are really two separate species. Then the Panta Rhei fishes would be a "link" between both species, what would argue for local forms of one species instead of two separate species. ;-)

regards,
Rolo
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
No, they didn't! But unfortunately mine didn't became very old. The Panta Rhei fishes seem to be quite old in my eyes.
I have never seen an old, big, adult Rotsaum male. Therefore I can't exclude, that it will develop tips and a robust body, but I could imagine that, if they grew up in good conditions. Have you ever seen such big old males to be sure?

Yes, I saw a tank full of A. viejita that were wild and a minimum of 6-7cm/2¼-2¾" total length. All looked had round tails. None showed a truncate/squared-off end not tips.

On the other hand I have never seen such a well-defined red dorsal seam at A. macmasteri. This I only know from A. sp. Rotsaum

See: http://www.rva.jp/zukan/apisto/ap_macmasteri_wild.htm. This is a wild-caught A. macmasteri with a red dorsal seam similar to Panta Rhei's fish. It probably is the same color form.

Well, if these fishes are really A. macmasteri, we should seriously rethink, if A. viejita and A. macmasteri are really two separate species. Then the Panta Rhei fishes would be a "link" between both species, what would argue for local forms of one species instead of two separate species. ;-)

Rolo, I totally agree. Koslowski shows a wildcaught fish in the DATZ Sonderheft (A 122) that he labels "A. macmasteri/viejita". It truly shows a mix of features of both species. The dark markings - especially the caudal spot - are more like that of A. viejita than A. macmasteri. The caudal fin is round (possibly a young fish?) like A. viejita. The body is less robust like A. viejita, too. On the other hand, the dorsal fin shows no red seam, like most wild populations of A. macmasteri and the head profile is like that of A. macmasteri (equally convex at top and bottom) than A. viejita (slightly more convex on top, slightly more straight on bottom). I don't know if this is an intermediate form/population of a single species or a hybrid of the two species. We really need to take extensive collections of the macmasteri-group species in all of the upper tributaries of the Río Meta. That should resolve the question. I'm ready to go do it - once the region's political and drug problems are resolved and peace is restored. It is slowly happening, but it still isn't safe for foreigners.

regards,
Rolo
 

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