HTH pool filter sand for agassizii

[antk]

Hi folks,

Was curious if hth pool filter sand (photo attached) would be ok for juvenile agassizii? I am setting up another tank and have some of this left over from another set up. It’s done in my other tank as a substrate, but wondering about the granule size because I heard/read that the larger or coarser granules might cut up their gills when sifting?

Thanks all!

 

[Apistoguy52]

Not the prettiest sand, but it’s been in all my Apistogramma tanks for almost a decade. No complaints, no concerns

 

[antk]

All I need is functional, thanks!

 

[MacZ]

I am setting up another tank and have some of this left over from another set up. It’s done in my other tank as a substrate, but wondering about the granule size because I heard/read that the larger or coarser granules might cut up their gills when sifting?

The size is not a problem, only the coarseness. Blasting sand tends to be bad, but pool filter sands, most play sands (make sure there are no anti-dog/cat additives in it), quartz sands etc at a grain size of 0.1 to 1.0mm are completely fine, no matter what manufacturer.

 

[antk]

The size is not a problem, only the coarseness. Blasting sand tends to be bad, but pool filter sands, most play sands (make sure there are no anti-dog/cat additives in it), quartz sands etc at a grain size of 0.1 to 1.0mm are completely fine, no matter what manufacturer.

Thank you, I feel I can move forward with confidence!

 

[anewbie]

I use it for my apisto and geo; my understanding is play sand might be finer but i generally like it. I have better long term effects on plants than most caribsea substrates i've tried. Also HTH is pretty cheap. I've not tried any play sand around here. For reasons i don't fully understand i've been more prone to get anaerobic pockets with carbisea substrates i've used - i think it has something to do with how those substrates pack but not sure.

As for pretty well it really isn't that bad. A little darker wouldn't hurt i guess and when i was a kid we had this play sand (it was actually sand used in a bomb shelter) that was pretty nice - good and dark and fine. I know very little about it as it was a long time ago and it was in unlabeled bags around the bomb shelter

Not sure many folks remember those old shelters... it was in a house we purchased that was built in the 60s.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

my understanding is play sand might be finer but i generally like it.

I've gone over to using finer sand, and I like it, and so do the fish.

Somewhere @Mike Wise or @Tom C posted a picture of the substrate that they picked up when they collected some fish, and it was very fine particles.

Edit: Found it <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/clay-like-substrate.23441/#post-109165">

cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

Hi all,

I've gone over to using finer sand, and I like it, and so do the fish.

Somewhere @Mike Wise or @Tom C posted a picture of the substrate that they picked up when they collected some fish, and it was very fine particles.

Edit: Found it <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/clay-like-substrate.23441/#post-109165">

cheers Darrel

Well the issue here isn't using finer sand it is finding it. Different brands of play sand have different composition. So if someone can name a specific brand then it would be easier to check out - of course this would have to be done by region (uk, usa, japan, china, ...). I would say pool filter sand - at least hth pool filter sand is inbetween and even the sand we used as play sand as a kid was coarser than the stuff on the right side of the ruler.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Different brands of play sand have different composition.

In the UK they should say "100% silica sand". I think the last bag I bought was from the (UK) supermarket Morrisons. It was something like £5 for 20 Kg.

"Kiln Dried Paving Sand" might be another option? I'm not sure about the USA or Europe but "block paving" is very popular in the UK and you pick the sand up at any building suppliers etc. it has to be fine (and dry) to fill any cracks between the blocks.

Pool filter sand is actually more difficult to source for us, we don't really have the summer weather to make outdoor swimming pools popular.

I recently used some from the left over "analytical sand" from the <"Quarry Life Project"> from Hyde Sand pit, near Wareham Dorset.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ben Rhau]

I found with HTH that the grain size was definitely larger than it said on the package/website. Does it work? Yes. But it's certainly larger than the grain size in nature. I also think the finer sands are more optimal. I haven't had a problem with anaerobic pockets, but also I never make a very deep layer. I'm unconvinced that a deep layer is necessary, even for rooted plants.

 

[anewbie]

I found with HTH that the grain size was definitely larger than it said on the package/website. Does it work? Yes. But it's certainly larger than the grain size in nature. I also think the finer sands are more optimal. I haven't had a problem with anaerobic pockets, but also I never make a very deep layer. I'm unconvinced that a deep layer is necessary, even for rooted plants.

And what sand do you use i.e, have you found a good play sand or similar?

 

[Ben Rhau]

I use Caribsea sand in the 0.25mm - 1.0mm size. I know you don't prefer it, but I've never had a problem with it. I also think that anything marketed as "aquarium sand" is likely overpriced. But it was easy to find the grain size I wanted. So that's what I did. If I had a very large tank (50+ gallons) I would not pay up for it. Instead I have a number of smaller tanks, 20g or smaller.

If I had to buy sand for a large tank, I'd look for 100% silica in a grit size around #24 or #30 (about 0.6mm average particle size) and that does not have sharp edges. So I would basically avoid blasting sand, which tends to be sharp.

 

[anewbie]

I use Caribsea sand in the 0.25mm - 1.0mm size. I know you don't prefer it, but I've never had a problem with it. I also think that anything marketed as "aquarium sand" is likely overpriced. But it was easy to find the grain size I wanted. So that's what I did. If I had a very large tank (50+ gallons) I would not pay up for it. Instead I have a number of smaller tanks, 20g or smaller.

If I had to buy sand for a large tank, I'd look for 100% silica in a grit size around #24 or #30 (about 0.6mm average particle size) and that does not have sharp edges. So I would basically avoid blasting sand, which tends to be sharp.

Yea - moonlight or moonshine - hate that stuff - i mean i love the look - but over an inch or so and it has problems. I will note that since i've gone blackwater my plants have never grown better. This is my discus tank - the 2nd picture started from one plant - i think that aquarium has an ec of around 45 but i should remeasure it. I've been doing some reading from my book of plants and a lot of the sa plants do really well - much better actually in very soft acidic water even with almost no fertilizer than in more neutral water:

This is my a. sp Blutkehl aquarium. First picture is a few weeks after planting and second is a few months later so you can see how much things have grown from may to sept (4+ months) this tank has an ec of around 25 and no fertlizer (though the swords in the back do have a root tab each):

Anyway ....

 

[antk]

@anewbie some incredible growth, thanks for sharing! Those cardinals with the discus really pop! Can you tell me what that plant is in the lower left corner of your last photo?

Thanks all for the substrate conversation, I will move forward with the hth pool filter sand and hope for the best.

I have a follow up question for you all. Please let me know if this should be a separate thread, but I figure since we're chatting about husbandry...

I finally found a fish store near me (~50 miles away ) that stocks agassizii. I asked about the ph of the water they're in and they tested it at 7.8. The tank I'm cycling right now has water straight from my tap at 7.6. I've added some almond leaves, spider wood, and plan to add some java fern, various anubias, crypts, and some fairy moss when it arrives in the mail. I expect all that to bring the ph down to where my other tanks are - around 6.4.

I know that apistos in general like softer water and in captivity, they are adaptable to higher ph. For the ones I might purchase from my closest LFS, 7.8 to 6.4 seems like a dramatic drop on day 1. Should I try to bring the ph back to the store's levels, then slowly add more botanicals to help the fish adjust?

Thanks!

 

[anewbie]

@anewbie some incredible growth, thanks for sharing! Those cardinals with the discus really pop! Can you tell me what that plant is in the lower left corner of your last photo?

Thanks all for the substrate conversation, I will move forward with the hth pool filter sand and hope for the best.

I have a follow up question for you all. Please let me know if this should be a separate thread, but I figure since we're chatting about husbandry...

I finally found a fish store near me (~50 miles away ) that stocks agassizii. I asked about the ph of the water they're in and they tested it at 7.8. The tank I'm cycling right now has water straight from my tap at 7.6. I've added some almond leaves, spider wood, and plan to add some java fern, various anubias, crypts, and some fairy moss when it arrives in the mail. I expect all that to bring the ph down to where my other tanks are - around 6.4.

I know that apistos in general like softer water and in captivity, they are adaptable to higher ph. For the ones I might purchase from my closest LFS, 7.8 to 6.4 seems like a dramatic drop on day 1. Should I try to bring the ph back to the store's levels, then slowly add more botanicals to help the fish adjust?

Thanks!

I would not raise your water ph. The lower left of the 4th aquarium the bright green plant is a crypt - i think it is Wendtii Green

 

[MacZ]

Should I try to bring the ph back to the store's levels, then slowly add more botanicals to help the fish adjust?

Just do 1-2 hours of drip acclimation. Don't mess with the tank. Also botanicals take a lot of time to lower pH. Using pure RO, it took me 6 months of adding leaf litter and elder cones to get the pH down from 6.5 to barely under 6 and another 3 months to get down firmly in the 5s.

Keep in mind with pH it's not amplitude but period. Most fish take an amplitude of +/- 2.5, even 3.5 pH-points within several hours with ease, but a change of 1.0 within less than 10 minutes can push many into critical condition. As a rule of thumb: Per 1 point pH estimate 1 hour of drip to work fine.

In general conductivity is much more important than pH.

 

[Bob Dixon]

All I need is functional, thanks!

There is a mineral called staurolite sold as a sandblasting medium under the brand name StarBlast. Under a microscope you can see that it is completely rounded on the edges. It has a nice ruby color and comes in a number of grades from .09 inches all the way down to .01 inches. Much prettier and actually smoother than HTH.

 

[anewbie]

There is a mineral called staurolite sold as a sandblasting medium under the brand name StarBlast. Under a microscope you can see that it is completely rounded on the edges. It has a nice ruby color and comes in a number of grades from .09 inches all the way down to .01 inches. Much prettier and actually smoother than HTH.

I have one concern - and i don't know if this site is accurate - but it lists the mineral staurolite as being toxic in water due to i presume leaching of heavy metals.

https://iantojonesthebetta.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F168640919856

 

[Bob Dixon]

Quick internet search led to the International Gem Society list of gem toxicity. https://www.gemsociety.org/article/gemstone-toxicity-table/

It states staurolite has no known toxicity. That doesn't mean it isn't toxic, only that no one has ever seen any toxic side effects anywhere. I haven't had problems with it.

Your list also has other gems (e.g. sapphire) that the IGS site states no known toxicity. The IGS says glass has a low toxicity, but I don't think I'll be getting rid of my tanks.

 

[anewbie]

Found more negative information - again i don't know if this is relevant to the fishes we keep but the stuff is considered cancerous to humans:

https://www.burwell.com.au/assets/volumes/downloads/SDS_Staurolite.pdf#:~:text=R48/20%20Harmful:%20danger%20of%20serious%20damage%20to,inhalation.%20(Dust%20proportion).%20R22%20Harmful%20if%20swallowed.

I think the difference is the small particles vs a complete gem. What i was trying to find out if the stuff in particle form is poisonous to fishes but i'm having problems finding toxic information. I.e, i don't know if the problem with humans is the small particles getting into the lunges or if there is a active toxicity associated with the mineral.