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Hillstream Loaches And Breeding

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
Im just wondering about the viability of putting a hillstream loach in a breeding tank, mostly due to the video ''How I bred Reticulated Hillstream Loaches at home'' at the time stamp 6:43 he mentions them being Fry safe, along side video footage of them Not eating a fry Infront of them. So I was then thinking, If Swellia fry are safe, Then Apistogramma Fry probably are too, i'm just spitballing here but I think the idea is viable. If you don't know what Swellia look like here is a picture, they are aufwuchs grazers. I do also wonder if they might interfere with the breeding procces or compete with fry.
1668952951806.png
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
735
Also the optimal temp for hillstream loach is a bit cooler than most common apistogramma. Doesn't mean you can't find a temp that works for both but it will be towards the warm side for hillstream loach.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
Also the optimal temp for hillstream loach is a bit cooler than most common apistogramma. Doesn't mean you can't find a temp that works for both but it will be towards the warm side for hillstream loach.
Im Breeding Borellii, they can do it colder
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
Sewellia are - as the common name suggests - hillstream dwellers, preferring cool, fast flowing, highly oxygenated water, smooth round rocks and a bit of sand, little else. Apistogramma borellii are found in small tributaries and floodplains with little water movement.

Here you see the loach habitat:

Here the habitat of Apistogramma borellii:

You see the difference? This is a major reason why it's not a good idea to keep them together.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
Sewellia are - as the common name suggests - hillstream dwellers, preferring cool, fast flowing, highly oxygenated water, smooth round rocks and a bit of sand, little else. Apistogramma borellii are found in small tributaries and floodplains with little water movement.

Here you see the loach habitat:

Here the habitat of Apistogramma borellii:

You see the difference? This is a major reason why it's not a good idea to keep them together.
I have experience with Sewellia and as mentioned in the video that started this whole thread, Don't actually need that much flow (Lowell BRED THEM with sponge filters) They don't need that high flow you mentioned, they only really seem to need lots of Oxygen, thats why Im thinking about it right now, Even Cory from aquarium Co-Op was able to do great with them while co-habitating them with Clown Loaches, (they bred at 86f) so I honestly am not that concerned about the needs of the loach, mostly because alot of what we think they need they honestly just... don't.
 

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
128
Location
Canada eh
The advice previously given to the contrary of what you want to do, is because you'd be compromising on the health of both species of fish as Mike Wise said community tanks are not breeding tanks. The hillstream loaches Will be chased by brooding females (even borellii.) Maybe hillstream loaches can be bred in differing water conditions from what is recommended however it makes them live much shorter lives as well.

Also Cory from Aquarium Co-op like any other youtuber or influence should not be solely relied on for advice, take everything with a grain of salt, they aren't resources I still utilize anyways.

I think it's safe to say everyone contributing advice here wants the best for your fish and your experience. The people contributing here also have some of the best apistogramma advice you'll get (and very strong general aquarium advice as well,) so i would at least encourage you to strongly consider what everyone replying to this thread has said and shown rather than replying that what has been said is wrong.

cheers,
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
Here the habitat of Apistogramma borellii:
That was an interesting thread about collecting borellii and their habitat - very useful for anyone thinking of a biotope setup for them, with other species listed as well. I was surprised to see so many snails caught with them. And yes, the habitat of hillstream loaches is very different even if temperatures may be similar.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
I have experience with Sewellia and as mentioned in the video that started this whole thread, Don't actually need that much flow (Lowell BRED THEM with sponge filters) They don't need that high flow you mentioned, they only really seem to need lots of Oxygen, thats why Im thinking about it right now, Even Cory from aquarium Co-Op was able to do great with them while co-habitating them with Clown Loaches, (they bred at 86f) so I honestly am not that concerned about the needs of the loach, mostly because alot of what we think they need they honestly just... don't.
A species reproducing in captivity is not necessarily a sign of good holding conditions. We have cases of animals having offspring in the most desolate conditions imaginable.
Thus I don't see "but they reproduce in X conditions" as proof of these conditions being ideal for holding. As Aquaticloch says, wrong conditions often have consequences like shortened lifespans, higher succeptibility to diseases and parasites and generally weaker stock.
So fine, yes, there are people that have shown it is possible. Was there ever the question whether one SHOULD try this, too? It's just a repetition.
I know trying to do things that are said to not work, not being a good idea or not being recommended is something people may see as a challenge. All good and fun. But as soon as there is the chance of animals taking harm in the attempt I see it unnecessary to try. Even questionable in terms of caretaking ethics. And I think I'm not wrong when I say that this is a widespread stance in this forum.

And especially Aquarium Co-op is not known for the best of advise. He's a great businessman and I respect him for some other things, but many of his ideas of fishkeeping I detest to the core as he sells them to impressionable people of all ages as the way to go, completely oblivious of the problems and consequences for animals it may cause. It has taken him much too long to make a video on the wild-caught Otocinclus problem after years of recommending them as algae eaters. An the video still somewhat whitewashed the trade in Otos.
I also find it almost cute (at the same time disturbing) how he worships german fishkeeping standards.
But never forget: Corey wants to SELL you stuff. Be it directly from his online store or just an idea. Always watch his stuff with that in mind. I myself have long stopped watching his videos, except in the rare occasion when it's part of a discussion.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
A species reproducing in captivity is not necessarily a sign of good holding conditions. We have cases of animals having offspring in the most desolate conditions imaginable.
Thus I don't see "but they reproduce in X conditions" as proof of these conditions being ideal for holding. As Aquaticloch says, wrong conditions often have consequences like shortened lifespans, higher succeptibility to diseases and parasites and generally weaker stock.
So fine, yes, there are people that have shown it is possible. Was there ever the question whether one SHOULD try this, too? It's just a repetition.
I know trying to do things that are said to not work, not being a good idea or not being recommended is something people may see as a challenge. All good and fun. But as soon as there is the chance of animals taking harm in the attempt I see it unnecessary to try. Even questionable in terms of caretaking ethics. And I think I'm not wrong when I say that this is a widespread stance in this forum.


I also find it almost cute (at the same time disturbing) how he worships german fishkeeping standards.
and
I never really considered that breeding is not necessarily a sign of good conditions, now that I think about it that makes sense, When I first acquired an interest in a hobby it was mostly through reading fishkeeping books, mainly one that I still have on my bookshelf (though Its been collecting dust and I forgot the name), Those older books put breeding on a Pedestal, I can almost quote the sentence by heart ''Breeding is arguably one of the greatest signs of success in the hobby, it means pristine water and stable conditions'' Granted this book was published in the early days of the hobby (not really, well it was the 90's) I probably should take the advice with a grain of salt.


''I also find it almost cute (at the same time disturbing) how he worships german fishkeeping standards.''
What are german fishkeeping standards ? I have actually always wondered about how the German industry works, German fishkeeping seems to put a high emphasis on line breeding from what I have seen, fancy guppies, many apisto lines, Discus, all seemingly line bred.



Now as a finishing thought I think that overall it probably regardless of environmental compatibility and aggression, Its probably honestly a bad Idea, I fed my loach some frozen bbs to see if he would probably compete with fry, and he went RABID for the Brineshrimp, literally scarfed, in the 29 he would at least whip 3 fry half to death accidentally.
 

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
128
Location
Canada eh
I think that loach tanks are generally very different from apistos in water conditions, temperament and hardscape requirements. Definitely better for both fishes to be seperate, as you said the loach would be very boisterous and also they may eat the apisto eggs.

Going off on a bit of tangent about Aquarium Co-op but I mainly stopped watching after he said that in peru many corydora are found in sharp large rock substrate, and can live like that. This has been proven time and time again to be wrong, as well as the fact that corys need the sand substrate as they are sandsifting fish. Generally he shares opinions which don't always seem to be the most informed or accurate.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
I never really considered that breeding is not necessarily a sign of good conditions, now that I think about it that makes sense, When I first acquired an interest in a hobby it was mostly through reading fishkeeping books, mainly one that I still have on my bookshelf (though Its been collecting dust and I forgot the name), Those older books put breeding on a Pedestal, I can almost quote the sentence by heart ''Breeding is arguably one of the greatest signs of success in the hobby, it means pristine water and stable conditions'' Granted this book was published in the early days of the hobby (not really, well it was the 90's) I probably should take the advice with a grain of salt.
Yeah, that has changed in the past 20 years, as people started focusing on more holistic approaches. A lot of research outside the fish world, especially concerning zoo animals and conservation breeding of rare species has shown that it's not as simple as we thought for a long time.

''I also find it almost cute (at the same time disturbing) how he worships german fishkeeping standards.''
What are german fishkeeping standards ? I have actually always wondered about how the German industry works, German fishkeeping seems to put a high emphasis on line breeding from what I have seen, fancy guppies, many apisto lines, Discus, all seemingly line bred.
Breeding is not everything. But you have more specialization on certain groups, a lot of people preferring to breed wild types and rare species. There's a reason many new species are describd by and named after Germans. We have a very lively biotope tank community for decades now.
But it's also more about the philosophy: Live plants, natural decoration, as little additives as possible (e.g. we don't have chlorinated water, so we don't even need dechlorinators). As little meds as possible, rather natural remedies instead (although many are prescription meds and are out of reach for most people anyways). Sustainability is also important to many.
But all that said, I find that the case for most of Europe in comparison to North America and East Asia.

Some months ago I stumbled over a video by Corey where he shows a rather standard low grade aquarium department in a hardware store/gardencenter, which still seems worlds better than an average Petco, raving over how he wants the methods and ideas to take a foothold in the US. The disturbing part is how that makes the hobby on the other side of the pond look (I know for a fact it's not all pink gravel and Spongebob decoration with glofish, allthough that is terrifying stuff and horrifyingly common) plus I don't care much for my country being a role model in any regard.

I think that loach tanks are generally very different from apistos in water conditions, temperament and hardscape requirements.
Agree. Here's a biotope tank for hillstream loaches at the natural history museum in my city. The museum is a zoological research facility of my university, they have a small but high quality aquarium section.

20220514_133609.jpg 20220514_134053.jpg
Going off on a bit of tangent about Aquarium Co-op but I mainly stopped watching after he said that in peru many corydora are found in sharp large rock substrate, and can live like that. This has been proven time and time again to be wrong, as well as the fact that corys need the sand substrate as they are sandsifting fish. Generally he shares opinions which don't always seem to be the most informed or accurate.
Yep. Hours upon hours of video footage taken in the wild disproves it. Yes, there are SOME Corydoras, of which SOME populations ALSO live on rough gravel. But deducing from that that all are ok with it is like saying "There are humans living in deserts. So ALL humans can live in deserts." I for sure can't. More than 25°C and I'm in trouble, over 30 and I become nocturnal.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
I for sure can't. More than 25°C and I'm in trouble, over 30 and I become nocturnal.
Well, actually you almost certainly could survive if you had to, but you would not be happy or healthy, and the same applies to fish kept in conditions that are not ideal for them.

I have only seen very few of those aquarium coop videos and was not impressed by any.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
the way I see it borellii and Hillstream loaches probably could get along in a tank, but with a bit more foresight I think it would have to be very carefully put together, I think its best to think of fishes needs as a spectrum, with biotopes at the habitable end, and as you go further right it gets less habitable until you leave comfort, and then livability altogether, for loaches and Borellii I think they only touch in the livability zone, not the true comfort zone
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
Yeah, that has changed in the past 20 years, as people started focusing on more holistic approaches. A lot of research outside the fish world, especially concerning zoo animals and conservation breeding of rare species has shown that it's not as simple as we thought for a long time.


Breeding is not everything. But you have more specialization on certain groups, a lot of people preferring to breed wild types and rare species. There's a reason many new species are describd by and named after Germans. We have a very lively biotope tank community for decades now.
But it's also more about the philosophy: Live plants, natural decoration, as little additives as possible (e.g. we don't have chlorinated water, so we don't even need dechlorinators). As little meds as possible, rather natural remedies instead (although many are prescription meds and are out of reach for most people anyways). Sustainability is also important to many.
But all that said, I find that the case for most of Europe in comparison to North America and East Asia.

Some months ago I stumbled over a video by Corey where he shows a rather standard low grade aquarium department in a hardware store/gardencenter, which still seems worlds better than an average Petco, raving over how he wants the methods and ideas to take a foothold in the US. The disturbing part is how that makes the hobby on the other side of the pond look (I know for a fact it's not all pink gravel and Spongebob decoration with glofish, allthough that is terrifying stuff and horrifyingly common) plus I don't care much for my country being a role model in any regard.


Agree. Here's a biotope tank for hillstream loaches at the natural history museum in my city. The museum is a zoological research facility of my university, they have a small but high quality aquarium section.

View attachment 12147 View attachment 12148

Yep. Hours upon hours of video footage taken in the wild disproves it. Yes, there are SOME Corydoras, of which SOME populations ALSO live on rough gravel. But deducing from that that all are ok with it is like saying "There are humans living in deserts. So ALL humans can live in deserts." I for sure can't. More than 25°C and I'm in trouble, over 30 and I become nocturnal.
Well by now I think alot less of Aquarium Co-op, but I'll still watch their videos, just a reason to be more skeptical.
I feel that Im often too trusting, but at least im smart enough to realise the need for skepticism when there is a deserved reason.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
Well, actually you almost certainly could survive if you had to, but you would not be happy or healthy, and the same applies to fish kept in conditions that are not ideal for them.
Exactly my point. I'd adapt by changing th time of day (or night) I'm most active. In summer I definitely have to do that. An apartment under the roof is the last place you want to live in when summer temperatures reach 40°C.
I feel that Im often too trusting, but at least im smart enough to realise the need for skepticism when there is a deserved reason.
I don't think you're too trusting but you haven't found a level of media literacy and confidence in your own knowledge to decide which sources to trust and which not. One thing I can give you for advise: If the source has even the remotest interest in selling you something - take it with a grain of salt.
Also rather trust specialized forum communities of dedicated hobbyists than Youtube, Instagram, Reddit or any other such sites where many people pop up for a moment of showing off and disappearing again to be never seen again. Like the people that show up on reddit to proclaim they have found the ultimate way to avoid waterchanges completely or that claim to have bred nerite snails in high numbers in freshwater. You can just throw a Bigfoot carcass in for good measure. All the same.
Hi all,

The one on "Seasoned Tank Time" is all right.

cheers Darrel
One of the few exceptions. I can agree on that one.
 

Eddy. E.

Member
Messages
51
Location
Germany
One can be quite divided about the keeping of fish that come from completely different habitats and that already differ in their soil conditions, climatic, seasonal conditions, flow ratio, and that also have completely different food habits.

However, it is indisputable, if aquarists would like to maintain these species together, fail again and again at above-mentioned conditions, which the animals usually acknowledge with it, significantly shorter life expectancies show and we do the animals with it no favor, only to fulfill our typical "I want it but so" behavior.

One can compare it with the typical human attempt, in which he tries to want to feed a dog, which is clearly carnivorous, vegetarian, because the human being is vegetarian. For this you only have to look at the dentition. It is no great knowledge necessary to recognize that such a set of teeth was not designed to chew food, but to tear. Man has not managed in six thousand years of domestication of dogs and cats, to change them from a carnivore into a herbivore. Nevertheless, it is tried again and again and it may even be feasible. Nevertheless, it remains simply unnatural and typically human. We always try to fathom certain things, what works and what doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, what do I have to do to make it work. The fact is that it is nonsense.

A typical example in the aquaristic field would be feeding beef heart to Discus species, at temperatures contrary to those of their natural habitats. Some idiot came up with this to make these mutants grow nice and fast, very big. And it holds up to this day. Interesting in such setups is that carnivore, herbivore, detritivore, etc. are kept together, the necessary food types are offered, but without addressing the problem that the different food types are also eaten by all others with all the resulting digestive problems, because of false protein input.

Also the recurring assertion that when fish reproduce in the aquarium everything must (!) be okay, because otherwise they would not do it, is not a qualitative statement at all. Conversely, one could also say that, they do not die, so they are fine.
And in forums around the globe you read again and again, my fish are sick and that although I do everything right. If you look closely, you will notice the wrong choice of species, wrong temperatures, wrong water parameters, wrong substrate. And the biggest ignoramuses in this profession are the aquascapers, if you talk about fish keeping.
 
Last edited:

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
However, it is indisputable, if aquarists would like to maintain these species together, fail again and again at above-mentioned conditions, which the animals usually acknowledge with it, significantly shorter life expectancies show and we do the animals with it no favor, only to fulfill our typical "I want it but so" behavior.

One can compare it with the typical human attempt, in which he tries to want to feed a dog, which is clearly carnivorous, vegetarian, because the human being is vegetarian. For this you only have to look at the dentition. It is no great knowledge necessary to recognize that such a set of teeth was not designed to chew food, but to tear. Man has not managed in six thousand years of domestication of dogs and cats, to change them from a carnivore into a herbivore. Nevertheless, it is tried again and again and it may even be feasible. Nevertheless, it remains simply unnatural and typically human. We always try to fathom certain things, what works and what doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, what do I have to do to make it work. The fact is that it is nonsense.
While I do not necessarily disagree with your statement I would like to offer a counterargument, mostly for the sake of it but I do also disagree with a few of your conclusions.
One can argue that we have in fact done the animal a favor even if providing a diminished lifespan and health, Fish in stores are often stressed and the store does not provide a proper long term environment for them.
And Unlike a wild environment there are no predators, droughts, and food shortages in an aquarium.
Fish that normally need to struggle for food get nutrients free.
In concluding this argument we can see that fish in aquarium conditions provided their owner is a diligent one get much better lives even if the conditions are sub optimal, the apparent.

And as to manipulating conditions to ''make it work'', who ever honestly said that was a bad thing.
Legally that animal is one's own property.
And I would say that this individual animal does not posses moral personhood, as such personhood must be consistient if we deem a simple fish deserving of complete moral consideration then we ought to consider fishing a genocide, natural hunting murder, and the separation of fry from a species that parents it's offspring a kidnapping.
As seen here it is not immoral to do so as these fishes do not posses true autonomy, they are not moral persons so it is not a question of morality that can be asked here.
One could even apply this to the dog, again moral consideration would grant it to us to consider the cattle, pig, and lamb industries a genocide, so one must if they belive dogs deserve moral consideration find a criterion that grants it to them but not to the common domestic mammals we consume regularly.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
232
A typical example in the aquaristic field would be feeding beef heart to Discus species
I haven't kept discus but always thought this was completely illogical.
the biggest ignoramuses in this profession are the aquascapers
I have sometimes used the term aquascape to refer simply to the arrangement of plants, wood and rocks. But I do know and appreciate exactly what you are talking about.
In concluding this argument we can see that fish in aquarium conditions provided their owner is a diligent one get much better lives even if the conditions are sub optimal
But why keep them in sub-optimal conditions?
And I would say that this individual animal does not posses moral personhood
Well this is getting rather philosophical, but no fish keeper can deny that fish are capable of feeling stress and discomfort.
natural hunting murder
Hunting for subsistence is one thing, that is a natural behaviour for humans. Hunting for trophies is wrong in my opinion.
find a criterion that grants it to them but not to the common domestic mammals we consume regularly.
As a girl I gave up eating meat because of the conditions I saw some animals kept in. The EU at least has some regulations about their welfare (I do eat fish, haha).
 

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Do you still have the F1 Ivanacara adoketa “red” from the Rio Icana, interested in getting 2 Pairs.
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Hi,

Do you still have Apistogramma diplotaenia pairs available to sell? Please advise. Thanks.

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I see that The Wet Spot Tropical Fish currently has the fire red A. agassizi you are looking for. Here is the link:
I've always had good experiences buying from them on line.
Hallo,
I am Hanzle from Holland and keep apistoos for 40 years. Had my own aquarium shop from 1984 till 1988. Always s great fan from apistoos and hyphessobrycon which is s great combination in a Community Aquarium. Perhaps.....in the near future I start breeding apistoos again. Have a 400 liters Community aquarium for hyphessobrycon wadai and apistogramma biteaniata.
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