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focusmarlon

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22
I received 5 borelli at about an inch and 2 are fine but 3 don't move as much and 2 of the 3 actually eat and swim around. They are in a 55 gallon planted running with 2 xp4 filters. My water is 7.2 I know thats high and I need to lower it. Would that be the cause of the problem? All the other fish are fine 30rummy nose 20 neon, 2 farowella 4 macmesteri.
 

MickeM

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5 Year Member
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441
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STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
I searched the web for your filters... If your xp4 filters(2?) are creating quite stormy conditions, this in combination(??) with lacking of an own area/territory to relax in, may be the reason..??
You may see this if they are being beaten constantly..by any dominant fish/fishes..
..their only choice then is to stand still and not threaten or challenge anyone else.. (Be/stay "invisable" so to speak..!)

As you describes it, the water-quality is probably OK ..since all other fishes are doing well..

Otherwise..Apistos normally prefer calm waters. (I keep pairs+breed many Apistos with no filters at all, but with controlled feeding+waterchanges )

If your weak Apistos are swimming slowly in a S-shaped way and the problem spreads to the other Apistos, they may have flagellates internal
(causing Hole-in-the-head-disease on Discus-fishes).. One other symptom will often be white soft feces+ fishes getting thinner belly/stomach over time..even if they keep eating OK..
But do not medicate (unnecessarily) if you are not sure of this!!

My 1st thought is that the Mcmasteri`s + dominant(larger) borelli`s probably are bullying the weakest..in order to establish the hierarchy+territories in the tank!! (Borelli is one of the most "friendly" Apistos..Mcmasteri gets bigger and are more competetive..at least in this situation!!)

If this is the case...maybe one/several home-made dark plastic horizontally hanging tubes by/at the surface can give them a place to hide+relax..?

Cheers,
Micke
 

focusmarlon

New Member
Messages
22
that is really good info thank you I will point my filter output towards the top as to only create surface agitation. I will put in some dark tubes and increase hiding spots
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
OK.. more/lot of hiding-places on the bottom may also help.. and maybe only use 1 of the filters.. if possible..
..but do not feed the many tetras too much..;)
If they "steal" all the food ..try to wet the food/thaw froozen food in some water and then pour it in so it reaches the bottom..otherwise the Apistos may be starving in the end..(only staring at the tetras eating it all..)
But keep an eye on the amount of restproducts..since keeping so many fishes!!

One more thing..Too much circulation (Oxygene) may stop your plant from thriving+growing OK..
The Farlowella`s would probably love it though..:)

/Micke
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
On the other hand you may get great amount of nutrients in the sand from all the restproducts.. so large amount of oxygene is needed..
The restproducts may actually help some plants I guess.. at least this is my experience..
Especially plants used to muddy enviroments.... rich in bottom-sediment/nutrients???
Try Echinodorus sp. /Nymphea sp./Aponogeton.sp if your tank-light is OK/not poor???
My exp.. Echinodorus sp. seem to grow better if temp is a little warmer than 24-25 Celsius/75-77 Fahrenheit !!(But this may be bad for some tanks/fishes!! Always a balance between good/bad !!;))
 

focusmarlon

New Member
Messages
22
those are beautiful plants I have echinodorus but not the other ones I'm going for an all south american biotopish tank.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
One more thing..Too much circulation (Oxygene) may stop your plant from thriving+growing OK../Micke
you know I never thought of too much oxygen would decrease plant growth man that makes total sense
I agree with Mick on nearly all things, but that isn't actually true. More circulation usually increases the level of all dissolved gases in the water, by creating a larger gas exchange surface. This means levels of dissolved gases are more similar to levels of atmospheric gases.

You don't have to have a "washing machine" effect, laminar flow or a "wet and dry" trickle filter is much more efficient.

This has advantages for both plant and animal welfare. During the photo-period, when photosynthesis is depleting dissolved CO2, and CO2 is replenished by diffusion at the gas exchange surface. At the end of the photo-period the water will be fully saturated with oxygen, but this will then be depleted by the respiration of the bioload during the night, and CO2 levels will begin to rise.

The problem if you don't have much circulation is that CO2 is a very soluble gas, and oxygen a much less soluble one.

In the atmosphere there is 21% O2, and 400ppm CO2 (which gives about 0.5 ppm dissolved CO2), but we can easily dissolve 30ppm CO2, with potentially fatal results to our livestock via the <"Bohr Root effect">. Oxygen is much less soluble than CO2, which means it takes much longer to diffuse into water body and lower tank levels will become de-oxygenated with low flow (a small gas exchange surface area).
The Farlowella`s would probably love it though.
Mick is right, rheophilic fish are particularly at risk from the Root Effect, and it was the "symptom less" death of large rheophilic Loricariids that led me to write <"Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium">, based upon the work I'd done on the re-mediation of landfill leachate.

Increased oxygenation also increases the efficiency of microbial biological filtration. "Microbe only" systems are much less efficient than "plant/microbe" filtration, but in both cases the principal metric that limits filtration is the level of dissolved oxygen, rather than that of ammonia (NH3).

Aquarists are obsessed with filter bacteria and ammonia, but scientists talk about pollution in terms of the "Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD)", basically you can retain water quality if the level of dissolved oxygen always exceeds the BOD. Plants are a great help in this, but you can also increase the gas exchange surface area (via a "wet and dry" trickle filter etc)

The final point is that a lot of plants actually grow better in flowing water, you can see this with Aroids like Anubias and Bucephalandra spp. and ferns like Bolbitis heudelotii in the aquarium, and mosses and plants like Fontinalis antipyretica and Ranunculus "fluitans" in temperate rivers.

cheers Darrel
 

focusmarlon

New Member
Messages
22
that is a very in depth explanation. I will see what works best with our making the fish uncomfortable. So far they are good minus just 1 borelli that just isn't adapting
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
If your weak Apistos are swimming slowly in a S-shaped way and the problem spreads to the other Apistos, they may have flagellates internal (causing Hole-in-the-head-disease on Discus-fishes).. One other symptom will often be white soft feces+ fishes getting thinner belly/stomach over time..even if they keep eating OK.. But do not medicate (unnecessarily) if you are not sure of this!!
My 1st thought is that the Mcmasteri`s + dominant(larger) borelli`s probably are bullying the weakest..in order to establish the hierarchy+territories in the tank!! (Borelli is one of the most "friendly" Apistos..Mcmasteri gets bigger and are more competetive..at least in this situation!!)
I will see what works best with our making the fish uncomfortable. So far they are good minus just 1 borelli that just isn't adapting
I'm not sure whether your borellii will ever be able to co-exist with the 4 macmasteri, even in a big planted tank.

Have you got another tank you could put them in? I would definitely want to remove the unhappy one, as it is likely to have a limited life span in the large tank, and I would be worried about it carrying parasites, either flagellates or Camallanus.

cheers Darrel
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
Thanks for the corrections Darrel.. Since I´m not a professional chemist I sometimes may phrase things in a wrong way..
What I actually wanted to say was that the ammount of CO2 may drop if circulation is high/strong.. Correct!??!;):):D:rolleyes:


BTW focusmarlon+all....
I have kept several different Apistos together in some tanks.. a few times..for some months..
But I have always been very careful with the mix..
Smaller in size/friendlier/smaller in mouthsize/more carefully (foodwise) Apistos .. were put together with what I think are tougher Apistos.. but these are then always smaller in size, when in the same tank!!!!

One example : some small dither fishes(Pseudoepiplatys,Nannostomus) + 5-6 young Apistogramma trifasciata(approx. 1,5-2 cm) + 5-10 young Apistogramma baenschi (approx. 1cm) was placed in a 100liter/27 gallon tank with a lot of plants/roots/leaves/hiding-places !!
But!!.. The A.baenschi was later reaching/growing to the same size as the A. trifasciata ..and starting to dominate them.. and they were therefore separated !!!
In short term, this method was a nice way to overview and raise them all up..+ not having to use/occupy 2 tanks !!
..and I guess the Apistos also "learned"/added/experienced some new social skills in this way!!??
..compared to strictly living with their own species..
In long term.. I bet the A.baenschi would have totally outcompeted the A.trifasciata !! (At least In this small/specific tank!!)

and always keep in mind .. that mixing grown+mature pairs/couples are not the same as mixing youngsters!!!

/Micke
 

focusmarlon

New Member
Messages
22
uploadfromtaptalk1456899081934.jpg
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Thanks for the corrections Darrel.. Since I´m not a professional chemist I sometimes may phrase things in a wrong way..
I'm not a chemist either, but looking at water parameters in polluted water is part of my "day job".
What I actually wanted to say was that the ammount of CO2 may drop if circulation is high/strong.. Correct!??.
Yes and no, it largely depends upon tank architecture (volume to surface area ratio) and the bio-load (including the sediment).

Fall in pH as proxy for CO2 content

In a planted tank, with water that isn't doesn't have a high dKH ("temporary hardness"), the easiest way to look at CO2 fluctuation is to use pH drop as a proxy for dissolved CO2 level (it is difficult to directly measure dissolved gas levels, without some very expensive kit). The other requirement is that you need to know the the dKH (carbonate hardness) of the water, if you want to get an absolute measure of CO2 level. If you just want to see if there is a difference with the filter on, or off, hardness is less important.

Carbonate CO2 equilibrium

You can use pH as a proxy for CO2 content because of the carbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium. Although calcium carbonate is technically insoluble in water, it soluble in weak acids (as bicarbonate HCO3-) and a very small proportion of dissolved CO2 goes into solution as "carbonic acid" (H2CO3).

At atmospheric CO2 levels (~400ppm) the HCO3- ~ H2CO3 equilibrium is stable at ~pH8. This means that water with any carbonate buffering will read pH8, if no other acids (H+ ion donors) are present.

Measuring pH

The starting point is to measure the pH towards the end of the photo-period, when the water is fully saturated with dissolved oxygen (oxygen is the base ("H+ ion acceptor") in OH-) in most circumstances the pH will be pH8 or higher.

The less water circulation you have the higher the pH will climb and you can get get pearling (O2 out-gassing as bubbles) even in grossly polluted water. CO2 levels will fall, and in nearly all still water systems the growth of submerged aquatic plants is CO2 limited. Floating or emergent plants don't have this constraint.

This happens in nature as well as in the aquarium, this is from Rocha, RRA.; Thomaz, SM.*; Carvalho, P. & Gomes, LC. (2007) "Modeling chlorophyll-α and dissolved oxygen concentration in tropical floodplain lakes (Paraná River, Brazil)" Brazilian Journal of Biology 69:2.

a05tab01.gif


Once the photo-period has ended pH will fall as the bio-load depletes dissolved oxygen and adds CO2 to the water. How much the pH fall depends upon both the dKH of the water and the amount of CO2 added by the bio-load.

You can use the experimentally defined dKH/pH/CO2 chart (developed for aquascapers) to estimate the CO2 content of your water.

co2_graph_zps9c124ef0-gif.16862

If you don't have water flow, unless you have very shallow tanks with a large surface area to volume ratio, CO2 levels rise very rapidly (pH falls rapidly), potentially to lethal levels.

As your flow rate increases the rise and fall in pH is lessened, because gases diffuse in and out of the water along their diffusion gradients with the atmosphere much more quickly.

Originally I wasn't interested in the CO2 part of the equation, just the increased oxygenation, but talking to aquascapers who add CO2, it became apparent that flow was very important in the distribution of CO2, and that more water turn-over aided plant growth even if you didn't add CO2.

I'm pretty sure the reason for this is that CO2 levels are less limiting to plant growth with more flow, as CO2 is constantly replenished from the larger gas exchange surface. This effect is more important for plant growth when compared to the larger reservoir of dissolved CO2 that develops before the photo-period with lower flow.

cheers Darrel
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Yes, it looks like there is some kind of infection in the angel's sensory pores and nostrils, which could be from flagellate protozoans like Hexamita or others, or from bacteria (Aeromonas, Edwardsiella, Mycobacterium, etc), or some combination of "disease-bugs" This is very common in soft-water cichlids and many other fish. If you decide to attempt treating it, i would isolate and treat the sick fish alone. Even though they are all exposed to infection, it's better to let the healthy-looking fishes fight off these infections on their own.

Darrel - Thanks for the EXCELLENT info as always! With good circulation & aeration (appropriate for the fish load), a tank without supplemental CO2 injection should always have CO2 pretty close to equilibrium with the air above it. In a tank with very little circulation, the question of whether CO2 increases or decreases (relative to equilibrium with the air above) depends on the rates of CO2 production (by bacteria and fish) versus CO2 uptake by plants. Many aquatic plants can uptake CO2 and ammonia (small amounts) even in the dark, storing it in their cells for later use when the light comes back. In tanks with a heavy fish load, or with lots of decaying mulm, CO2 probably increases. In tanks with a heavy plant load and few or small fish, CO2 probably decreases. In any case, aeration can NOT decrease CO2 below the air-equilibrium level, so unless you're injecting CO2 to keep it artificially high, there's no reason to fear aeration.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Darrel, Regani, or others: Alkalinity data in the table above (darrel's post #15) is in micro-equivalents per Liter. Is there an easy way to convert uEq/L into mg/L (emphasis on easy, please)?
 

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