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help needed with ivanacara spawn.

martink

Member
Messages
64
So ~Ive been trying to get the water quality right and I am having trouble. I guess I could just strip my tank, but it kind of annoys me that it doesnt work. The water goes in pure 0 EC and overnight jumps to 80. ~I even tried to do a 100% change, soaking up residue water with a towel but still the same. There is nothing in there except wood and leaf litter so I just dont get it, I thought 'botanicals' upped the tds 20 tops and I didnt think that would have any bearing on the eggs. But they have clouded again.

Perhaps the male is not fertilising them but I think it is the water. I do not use peat as I bought Irish peat and it raises the tds by 200. i might buy some peat moss instead but I am using pure RO!!! a lot of trouble.

Anyway my next move before I just strip the tank completely is to pick up the leaf they spawn on and put it into a plastic lidded jar of RO water. I figure I can then replace it and the parents will retain interest. I'm not a breeder but I want to try to have them breed fairly naturally in the tank. but advice is welcome.
 

Apistoguy52

Active Member
Messages
303
PH?

In my experience, I could get Ivanacara eggs to hatch at 95% without RO (us/cm 70-120) if the pH was 5.5 or lower.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,119
Location
Germany
Are you using white or black peat? Also maybe too much, as it should usually only add maybe 50-100 microS/cm in conductivity.
 

martink

Member
Messages
64
Are you using white or black peat? Also maybe too much, as it should usually only add maybe 50-100 microS/cm in conductivity.
yeah its black peat and im adding a bricket so likely its far too much. but I just dont understand how you can tint the water brown and have conductivity at 20 which is recommended. its like magic. I have a jar of alder cone water which is black, but the EC is 1200 and so i darent add it to my RO water which takes literally 24 hours to fill the tank. is it really just a balancing act? I suppose the rainfall in the amazon during the breeding season is almost constant so the tannins would be constantly washed out. but in the dry season would build up so that if collected in the dry season they would look like they are in dark water but actually breed in clearer water? is this hypothesis correct? im just going to take out most of the wood in the tank and concentrate on the ec being low rather than the tannins being present. I may start to add acidity but im guessing that also adds conductivity. this is a hard hobby.
 

Apistoguy52

Active Member
Messages
303
yeah its black peat and im adding a bricket so likely its far too much. but I just dont understand how you can tint the water brown and have conductivity at 20 which is recommended. its like magic. I have a jar of alder cone water which is black, but the EC is 1200 and so i darent add it to my RO water which takes literally 24 hours to fill the tank. is it really just a balancing act? I suppose the rainfall in the amazon during the breeding season is almost constant so the tannins would be constantly washed out. but in the dry season would build up so that if collected in the dry season they would look like they are in dark water but actually breed in clearer water? is this hypothesis correct? im just going to take out most of the wood in the tank and concentrate on the ec being low rather than the tannins being present. I may start to add acidity but im guessing that also adds conductivity. this is a hard hobby.
I ascribe to a similar hypothesis. For the more difficult species I am 100% trying to simulate the pH increase that would be caused by loads of rain. Bounce from 4/4.5 up to 5/5.5. Using source water with some alkalinity helps with the bounce when using an external acid source. PH adjustment with acid in a bottle adds 7tds/14us/cm to my source water
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,119
Location
Germany
yeah its black peat and im adding a bricket so likely its far too much. but I just dont understand how you can tint the water brown and have conductivity at 20 which is recommended. its like magic. I have a jar of alder cone water which is black, but the EC is 1200 and so i darent add it to my RO water which takes literally 24 hours to fill the tank. is it really just a balancing act? I suppose the rainfall in the amazon during the breeding season is almost constant so the tannins would be constantly washed out. but in the dry season would build up so that if collected in the dry season they would look like they are in dark water but actually breed in clearer water? is this hypothesis correct? im just going to take out most of the wood in the tank and concentrate on the ec being low rather than the tannins being present. I may start to add acidity but im guessing that also adds conductivity. this is a hard hobby.
Thought so. Black peat is not suitable for aquarium use. Much too strong. With less than half the amount in white peat you won't get that high EC. So it's the source of humic substances giving you trouble.
And about the alder cone extract... how many cones and how long have you let it sit?
so i darent add it to my RO water which takes literally 24 hours to fill the tank.
Erm... you don't have a canister or a similar big vessel to bottle the stuff up? Adding directly from a slow, small RO unit is not really efficient and can also contribute to adding EC.
im just going to take out most of the wood in the tank and concentrate on the ec being low rather than the tannins being present.
The wood has structural purpose, so better leave it.

I also don't think it's about the pH with the seasonal changes. It's primarily about the conductivity. So it's of course not necessary to add that much humic substances. I might also add: The strength of the colour is linked to pH. The lower the pH the lighter the colour. You can try this with tea. Add a drop of lemon juice to a cup of black tea, it almost immediately becomes lighter. So to achieve dark colouration it takes either water with a higher pH to start with or A LOT of humic substances. And that's why when you want to achieve low conductivity with low pH, colouration is not a reliable indicator.
 

martink

Member
Messages
64
Thought so. Black peat is not suitable for aquarium use. Much too strong. With less than half the amount in white peat you won't get that high EC. So it's the source of humic substances giving you trouble.
And about the alder cone extract... how many cones and how long have you let it sit?

Erm... you don't have a canister or a similar big vessel to bottle the stuff up? Adding directly from a slow, small RO unit is not really efficient and can also contribute to adding EC.

The wood has structural purpose, so better leave it.

I also don't think it's about the pH with the seasonal changes. It's primarily about the conductivity. So it's of course not necessary to add that much humic substances. I might also add: The strength of the colour is linked to pH. The lower the pH the lighter the colour. You can try this with tea. Add a drop of lemon juice to a cup of black tea, it almost immediately becomes lighter. So to achieve dark colouration it takes either water with a higher pH to start with or A LOT of humic substances. And that's why when you want to achieve low conductivity with low pH, colouration is not a reliable indicator.
thanks for all your info thats really helpful. I may get a better Ro unit but my water is so soft it takes little to get it to 0 ec. its at 80 from the tap. but thanks this has given me some perspective.
 

martink

Member
Messages
64
I want to add that I took out a lot of wood and instead I added about 40 cherryblossom tree leaves presoaked in boiled water; It seem that not all tannins are the same as the water is tinted decent and has only added 5ppm since adding the leaves and removing the wood.
 

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