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First timer with Apistogrammas

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
I've been doing a lot of research about these interesting fish and I have decided to get some for a recently acquired 33 gallon tank. (36x12x18) There is a good shop near me that has a tank full of juvenile A. cacatuoides, about one inch long. I understand that these are a good variety to start with. I would like to get a few fish (perhaps 5?) and raise them together. I want to watch them mature, stake out territories, pair up and perhaps eventually breed. I have a spare 15 gallon tank that can be used to remove some fish if that becomes neccessary. Breeding is not my primary aim but it may become one when the fish mature. At the moment the tank has been up for a couple weeks and is well planted with live plants and there is rock and driftwood. Lots of nooks and crannies have been created. This past weekend I put in 8 neons and 4 corydoras. I am assuming that the corys may have to be removed, at least temporarily, if breeding takes place and I want to keep the fry. I also plan to get another variety of tetra a few ottos to round out the tank. pH is currently 7.5 but I will try to lower that a bit before getting the Apistos in a couple of weeks. GH is 7 and KH is 5.

Is this a sound strategy, getting several fish as juveniles? Is 5 a good number?

How many (mature m/f) would be a good number for a tank that size?

Can a one inch juvenile be sexed accurately or will I basically be waitng to see what I ended up with? Some of the fish I was looking at seem to be more brightly coloured with more distinct black markings and are begining to show red on the caudal fin. Are these perhaps males or just variations in the individual fish?

How long would it take for a one inch A. cacatuoides to mature? I understand that they can live for 2-3 years. Correct?

My tap water has a pH of 7.5, is that sufficient for my purposes or should I begin on getting it lower? Breeding at some point down the road would require a lower pH, but would the fish be happy with that as they grow?

Any suggestions for other fish that would do well in a community like this would be appreciated as well.

Cheers
 

Neil

New Member
Messages
1,583
Location
Sacramento, Ca.
Griz,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Seems like you have quite a good grasp on what you are doing already!

Is this a sound strategy, getting several fish as juveniles? Is 5 a good number?

Probably, but know that often sex ratios can be one-sided, especially from captive bred fish.

How many (mature m/f) would be a good number for a tank that size?

You may well be able to keep your 5 fish in that tank indefinitely, but a trio (or maybe 2 pairs) is a better bet.

Can a one inch juvenile be sexed accurately or will I basically be waitng to see what I ended up with? Some of the fish I was looking at seem to be more brightly coloured with more distinct black markings and are begining to show red on the caudal fin. Are these perhaps males or just variations in the individual fish?

In cacatuoides, sexing often can occur quite young. Females can get the red/black markings in the caudal, but they are usually lighter and less wide-spread than the males. A blck leading edge to the ventral fin is another indicator, but again can sometimes be deceiving. If you have fish that are more colorful in the body and on the fins and don't have the darkened ventral edge and others that are less colorful and do have the edge, I would say that you have yourself both sexes.

How long would it take for a one inch A. cacatuoides to mature? I understand that they can live for 2-3 years. Correct?

Within 3 to 6 months, you should have fairly mature fish, given good water and food.
With all things considered 2 to 3 years is a good benchmark, but they most definitely can live a little longer than that.

My tap water has a pH of 7.5, is that sufficient for my purposes or should I begin on getting it lower?

That is probably fine. However, the hardness of the water (and most definitely the cleanliness) are more important values.

Breeding at some point down the road would require a lower pH, but would the fish be happy with that as they grow?

For breeding cacatuoides, breeding would not necessarily require lowering the pH. But, I find that productiveness and overall health and well-being seems to be higher in softer more acidic water, even with cacatuoides.

Good luck,
Neil
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Thank you very much for the reply Neil.

Sounds like I am on the right track. Although I would love to have 2 males with 2 or 3 females in the tank, I think I will try to get 1 male and 2 females. This seems to be the arrangement that stands the best chance of success. With the help of your advice in determining the sex of these fish when young, I will hopefully be able to get 1m/2f, especially since the fish I looked at will have developed a bit more over the the next couple of weeks and will be easier to sex. The staff seemed quite knowledgable and should be able assist me. I am sure at least one of them will know Apistos. The fish I looked at seemed to be mainly females but that of course is just a semi-educated guess. My pH is 7.5 but I will be putting more driftwood into the tank and will start filtering through peat in order to slowly lower the pH a bit, more in the interest of keeping the fish in good health rather than for breeding purposes.

Thanks again :D
Griz
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Well, my tank should be ready for my apistos in another week or two. I'm taking my time but the wait has been difficult :( I still need to check out a few places to see what else is available around me.

What arrangement would you use for a community tank where spawining would be nice but is not a priority? Tank is 33 gal (36x18x12) well planted, rocks with crannies, driftwood. 2 pairs? 1m/2f? 1m/3f? other? I'm still undecided about it. :?
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Well I decided on a trio of cacatuoides, 1m/2f and they have settled into the tank nicely. :D They are young, about 1 1/4". I'm absolutely captivated by these fish! The 2 females look quite different. Well, I'm 99% cetain they're both females, please correct me if I'm wrong. Here are some pics from the proud new father. The one is a beautiful yellow, much more yellow than I had expected. She wasn't that bright at the lfs but changed within an hour of getting home. The other is quite pale and seems to be subordinate to the other. The male hasn't cooperated for a decent pic yet. No doubt that he is a he though. hehe

I'm hooked already, a fascinating fish to keep.

cac3.jpg



cac4.jpg
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Hi Mike.

When they were selected, both of these fish had rather dark ventral fins. Looking at "her" today, the black leading edge is there but rather faint. The lower fish has become quite yellow and the black markings much more pronounced since I got her home. The top fish has become paler but is eating well and seems to be healthy. Perhaps a bit shy however.

Thanks for the reply Mike, I was thinking that this one might just might turn out to be a male. I'll have to wait and see as they get older. One thing I have learned already is that the coloration on these fish can change quite dramatically and quickly depending on their "mood". This makes them all the more interesting to me.

I'm just getting back into the hobby after an absence of about ten years. I kept all sort of fish for about 20 years when I was younger but have never kept dwarf cichlids. I am so glad I decided on apistos! They are incredible fish, and I expect that they will turn out to be the most interesting fish I have had the pleasure to keep.

I have been hanging out here regularly and will contiune to do so. I'll let you know what he/she turns out to be.
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
We just had a problem with a young "female" being a male and it had the very same problem mike mentioned. I also believe that's a female. Judging from experience I'd say that's a female.
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Here's a better pic. I'm pretty sure it's a female.
cac%20f2%200733.jpg


And I finally managed to get a pic of the male.
cac%20m%200729.jpg


Man, aquarium photography ain't easy. :wink:
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
NOW it looks like a female. =)

You need a camera with a FAST shutter speed in order to take good aquarium pictures. Any camera without a fast shutter speed is only going to take mediocre pictures.

Nice male though, is it wild?
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
cdawson said:
NOW it looks like a female. =)
I thought so, good to have confirmation though :)
cdawson said:
You need a camera with a FAST shutter speed in order to take good aquarium pictures. Any camera without a fast shutter speed is only going to take mediocre pictures.
Not only am I new to apistos, I'm new to digital photography. I used to do quite a bit of 35mm and have the equipment needed to do it right. I may drag out my SLR kit but film is soooo expensive. Thanks for the tip.
cdawson said:
Nice male though, is it wild?
No, not a wild fish. After much searching I was able to find a shop with a tank of young cacs, just over an inch long. A 60 mile drive but well worth it. They are now just about 1 1/2 inches. I really wanted some young fish so that I could watch them mature. There has been some courtship behaviour between him and the one female showing yellow coloration. Guess they grow up fast! :lol: The plan is not to breed them, it's a community tank, but I do have an empty 10 gallon tank kicking around. :wink:
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
Well, it looks like I may have eggs!
One female has been holed up under a large piece of bogwood for the past 3 days, only coming out occasionally and not going very far, and the male is patrolling the entrance and chasing off the corys and the other female. There is a good sized hollow up under the wood. Wow! that was quick, they've only been in the tank 11 days.
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
BTW griz, you've probably figured it out anyways, but only take pictures in areas where there is alot of light because you can't use the flash.

As for your pair, mine spawned only THREE days after adding them to the tank. Cacs are VERY easy to spawn IMO/IME, even mollies were more difficult to breed. It must also have been the climate change too, it's easier to maintain certain water temps when the heat outside isn't directly affecting the temperature of the water. My other apistos just spawned as well, they're a pair of emerald sp.
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
The eggs are gone :(

I never did get a look at them but the cave has been abandoned. Judging by the way they are getting on it won't be long before they give it another try though. :D They seem very happy in their new tank.
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
if there are any other fish in the tank remove them before letting them try again. The constant activity will distract them from the fry too much. Keeping mom and pop in a 10 or 20 gallon will enough, but anything more will distract them too much.
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
I have a spare 15 gal that could be set up as a breeding tank. I will likely do that at some point in the future but right now I just don't have the time to deal with feeding fry. I'm just enjoying them. :D
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
One 10 gallon heavily planted w/ lots of driftwood and cover would be enough for the fry to feed off of most of the time. I feed mine BBS once a day and they're growing pretty fast. I've only lost a about 3 or 4 so far, and I think that she's already protecting another batch of eggs.
 

depthc

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
121
Location
SC
Any new developments griz?

It is possible that the fish arnt just mature enough to handle the fry, this is the case with other cichlids like blue rams and angelfish. They just arnt great parents until they have a few failed spawns under their belt.

.dc
 

Griz

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
113
Location
Canada
As a matter of fact there is! We have fry!

They have been free swimming for several days now, my son noticed them. I would estimate that they are 2mm. The parents have been doing a great job of keeping the other fish at bay and the nursery area around the big piece of bogwood seems to be providing lots of cover for them. I am keeping a light on in the room to help them at night. We are not sure how many, but there are at least a dozen and maybe a lot more. They are spending their time just under the bogwood and around the base of a clump of crypt so it is hard to tell. It has been fascinating watching them and the parents. I'm not sure what they are feeding on but they must be getting something. I wanted to raise BBS for them but didn't have a chance. Instead, I have been feeding at the opposite end of the tank and then dropping some mashed frozen BS and daphnia near the fry while everyone else is occupied at the other end. I'm also putting algae wafers at the opposite end to help keep the other fish away from them and generally keeping everone well fed. I have increased the water changes to compensate for possible overfeeding, although I'm being careful not to. I am quite surprised that they are doing so well, there are quite a few other fish in there. Neons, pencilfish, otos and corys.

I was thinking about setting up my spare 15 gallon this weekend and siphon off some of the fry. Can the fry handle being siphoned though air line or vacuum tubing? I would use tank water and cultivate bacteria by keeping the filter media for the new tank in the old filter for a bit first. I would also put in some of the oak leaves from the existing tank.

How big do fry need to be before they are safe from corys and neons, and how long would they take to reach that size? Maybe I could just let nature take it's course? I really don't want too many fry at this point.
 

cdawson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
271
Location
Vancouver,BC
I would get them out the second you find the 15 is safe for fish, transfer the mother and the fry to new tank with like water conditions. The tetras will prey on the fry once they're free swimming and the cories may as well.
 

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