Female ID! Agassizii Tefe vs. Agassizii Double Red.

[Mozzulu]

Hello,

I received four females - two Agassizii Tefe and two Agassizii Double Red. Unfortunately, they were not labeled. The Agassizii Tefe could possibly be an Agassizii Net/Netz (Alenquer) variant based on the look of the males. After extensive searching, I was almost sure which was which but the breeder seems to think otherwise. The photos may not do them justice but the two types of females look distinctively different in person. Type #1 has a more reddish colored body with a maroon hue. Type #2 has a more yellowish body.

Any help would be greatly appreciated separating the two.

Thanks!


Mystery Female #1:

Mystery Female #2:

 

[TCMontium]

I do not know the difference between A. agassizii and A. sp. "Tefe" or A. sp. "Netz" females, but I think the breeder would know the fish they bred and raised until adulthood. If the breeder is wrong, than I guess they really didn't even glance at the fish they raised. Did they say "type #1" females are the "Netz" and "type #2" are the "Double Red"?

 

[Mozzulu]

I do not know the difference between A. agassizii and A. sp. "Tefe" or A. sp. "Netz" females, but I think the breeder would know the fish they bred and raised until adulthood. If the breeder is wrong, than I guess they really didn't even glance at the fish they raised. Did they say "type #1" females are the "Netz" and "type #2" are the "Double Red"?

Hi TC, thanks for the reply.

I should clarify that I wouldn't doubt the breeder's input but I'm located in the Middle East and these fish were imported through maybe 3-4 intermediaries between myself and the breeder. To ask them that one question, a single photo of both females had to be passed across those 3-4 parties and back to me, so I can't be 100% sure that the reply I got in the end was reliable. From my experience, the breeder seems to be extremely reputable and caring towards the fish but I can't say for the agents and retailers in between.

But your intuition seems to validate the reply I got because the response I did get from the breeder is that type #1 is the "Netz/Alenquer" and that type #2 is "Double Red".

Here's a photo fo the Netz male for reference.

 

[TCMontium]

Hi TC, thanks for the reply.

I should clarify that I wouldn't doubt the breeder's input but I'm located in the Middle East and these fish were imported through maybe 3-4 intermediaries between myself and the breeder. To ask them that one question, a single photo of both females had to be passed across those 3-4 parties and back to me, so I can't be 100% sure that the reply I got in the end was reliable. From my experience, the breeder seems to be extremely reputable and caring towards the fish but I can't say for the agents and retailers in between.

But your intuition seems to validate the reply I got because the response I did get from the breeder is that type #1 is the "Netz/Alenquer" and that type #2 is "Double Red".

Here's a photo fo the Netz male for reference.

View attachment 7608

I understand the doubt if that is the case. Direct communication is important.
My intuition doesn't validate anything at all actually. I guessed that because you said "I was almost sure which was which but the breeder seems to think otherwise", which made me think that the breeder was saying the females with more red coloration were the "Netz" and the ones with blue on the tail (only in the last photo) and less red in general were "Double Red". I do not know the difference between the females of these species, so any guess I would make is unimportant.

 

[Mozzulu]

Thanks TC. Your input is highly appreciated.

 

[Mike Wise]

I hate to say it, but I know of no one - even the 'experts' - who can separate female A. sp. Tefé from A. agassizii. That certainly includes me. You might want to experiment with the females. Put the 2 females in with 1 of the males. The one he courts most will almost certainly be the same species. Although we cannot tell them apart, they can!

One other thing. "Mystery Female #2 worries me. Females of both species very, very rarely have the caudal stripe that runs all the way to the posterior edge of the caudal fin. This is much more commonly seen on males.

 

[Mozzulu]

I hate to say it, but I know of no one - even the 'experts' - who can separate female A. sp. Tefé from A. agassizii. That certainly includes me. You might want to experiment with the females. Put the 2 females in with 1 of the males. The one he courts most will almost certainly be the same species. Although we cannot tell them apart, they can!

Thanks so much for that Mike!

I assume that since A. sp. Tefé and A. Agassizii females are almost inseparable, that makes differentiation of females within Agassizii types/color morphs virtually impossible? The reason I ask is that in earlier posts you had suggested that my Agassizii Tefé's are more likely to be Agassizii Net/Netz. Can you confirm this ID with the photo of the male in aggressive stance posted above?

Another clarification is that the fish I received were sold to me as Agassizii Tefé's, not A. sp. Tefé.

I have been experimenting quite a bit and my observations so far:

1. Both females look distinctively different and I have been able to separate them easily. Type #1 are slightly smaller with an overall reddish coloration throughout. Their mouths are slightly more elongated and pointier than type #2.

2. In breeding/broodcare dress, type #1 will turn slightly yellowish (while still maintaining a reddish hue) and lose the lateral band for a permanent lateral spot. Type #2 females have so far laid eggs and become vicious guarding them but maintain a lateral band throughout.

3. Either type of female will readily mate with the dominant male in the tank. In tanks where only one male is present but both types of female, the male will court both readily - there doesn't seem to be a particular preference.

4. I have seen more of an interest from the type #2 females towards the Double Red males, which would confirm the information I got from the breeder but again this could be observational bias on my part.

Thanks for the input!

-Mo

 

[Mike Wise]

My opinions - where I could be wrong, of course. The male still looks more like A. cf. agassizii (Netz) than A. sp. Tefé to me. The holotype and Netz forms are more closely related than A. sp. Tefé. If your Tefé actually is a Netz agassizii, then he probably would accept both females about equally.

As for females - and apistos in general - color is not as diagnostic as the pattern of black markings. I can see differences in the females primarily in the darker (pseudo caudal spot so to say) on female 1. Do either males show the same feature? If #2 female is more interested in the double red male, then it's a good chance they are both double reds.

 

[Mozzulu]

My opinions - where I could be wrong, of course. The male still looks more like A. cf. agassizii (Netz) than A. sp. Tefé to me. The holotype and Netz forms are more closely related than A. sp. Tefé. If your Tefé actually is a Netz agassizii, then he probably would accept both females about equally.

From your previous posts and extensive comparison to other photos, the non-red males look more like the Netz variant than the holotype-form of Tefé. Particularly absent when comparing to other Netz however is the very long tips on the dorsal and anal fins of the males and the distinct terminal dorsal pattern I've seen on Alenquer males. My males may not be old enough to exhibit these characteristics.

As for females - and apistos in general - color is not as diagnostic as the pattern of black markings. I can see differences in the females primarily in the darker (pseudo caudal spot so to say) on female 1. Do either males show the same feature? If #2 female is more interested in the double red male, then it's a good chance they are both double reds.

It's hard to say but if I had to make a judgment on this, I would say the Double Red males have this slightly darker caudal spot than the non-red (Netz/Tefé) males. I've included photos of all fish below for you to have a look if you could. Please note the very different caudal patterns of the two non-red males.

One other thing. "Mystery Female #2 worries me. Females of both species very, very rarely have the caudal stripe that runs all the way to the posterior edge of the caudal fin. This is much more commonly seen on males.

Yes, I was almost sure that she was a sneaker male until she began guarding a cave (can't see inside) and exhibiting typical female behavior with the caudal flutter during courtship. I'm assuming sneaker males don't try to court other dominant males!

Type 1 Females:

Type 2 Females

Double Red Males:

Netz/Tefe Males:

 

[Mike Wise]

If they were my fish I'd try the type 1 females with the double red males. I'd first raise a group of fry to maturity and see if the double red trait breed true (at least in 75 - 80% of the males).

 

[TCMontium]

If they were my fish I'd try the type 1 females with the double red males. I'd first raise a group of fry to maturity and see if the double red trait breed true (at least in 75 - 80% of the males).

Just wondering: Why would you prefer trying to breed the type #1 females with the "Double Red" males first?
Since the breeder says the type #2s are "Double Red" females and type #2 females are more interested in the "Double Red" males, there is a high chance that those two females are "Double Red". Does something else suggest that the type #1 females could be the actual "Double Red"s or do you prefer to pair up a "Double Red" male with a probable "Netz" female to see what percentage of the offspring would be "Double Red"? Or some other reason?

(so many "'Double Red'"s )

 

[Mozzulu]

If they were my fish I'd try the type 1 females with the double red males. I'd first raise a group of fry to maturity and see if the double red trait breed true (at least in 75 - 80% of the males).

My thoughts exactly. I have one Double Red with two type 1 females in a 50 gallon. One female produced eggs after about 10 days. The other may be guarding eggs that I can't see. We'll see how this experiment turns out.

Type 2 females have been in another tank with the dominant Netz male far longer but so far have failed to produce anything. Do you think that the photos of the last two males above are two different kinds of Agassizii/Netz based on the caudal pattern?

Just wondering: Why would you prefer trying to breed the type #1 females with the "Double Red" males first?

I would like to know Mike's reasoning behind this as well.

 

[Mike Wise]

Agassizii forms are very polychromatic, so the pattern if variable even within a single collecting location.

Why would I first try type #1 females with the Double Red males? Well both show a darker 'pseudo caudal spot' darkening at the base of the tail. Other than that, just a gut feeling that type #1 look like double red females I've seen (nothing scientific, really).