EBR fry extra floaty =/

[jetajockey]

So this next round of EBR fry hatched, but 95% of them seem to be hovering right at the surface, along the tank edge and in the corners. They've been doing this since they were freeswimming.

They don't seem to be interested in eating, but I've been squirting in infusoria along with newly hatched bbs just in case.

It does seem like there are a couple that are acting normal, but the rest are just kinda hanging in the corners.

It's been a couple days now, and a lot of them are gone now. I did suck up a few and put them in the fry tank next door, and they seemed to be doing the same thing, it's almost like they have some sort of swim bladder issue that is making them float up to the top.

Has anyone had this issue before?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Can they swim? if they can they are probably all right. I haven't kept EBR, but I've had "wild type" Rams, and the fry formed a cloud around the parents, very different from the bottom hugging fry of Apistogramma.

cheers Darrel

 

[MikeW65]

Hi JJ,

Where and how strong is your air source? I would start with an airstone about an inch under the surface at 50% flow, they will most times run up and down a corner or end of the tank nearest to a light source.
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

hey , update. Nah there was some issue with these, I don't know what, because I took extra care not to disturb the eggs while transferring to the fry tank. I never moved them out of the water or anything.

They are all gone, save one or two. They looked like they were literally stuck at the top of the water, I took one of my turkey basters and pushed them down and they'd immediately float back up, it was like they had some sort of swim bladder issue.

it was crazy, I don't know what the issue was, but I have to wait till the next round of eggs I guess.

It's funny because I have at least a hundred peacock gudgeon/danio choprai/devario sondhii fry growing out without any issue.

 

[jetajockey]

Hi JJ,

Where and how strong is your air source? I would start with an airstone about an inch under the surface at 50% flow, they will most times run up and down a corner or end of the tank nearest to a light source.
Mike

In this instance, i had a sponge filter in t here just barely bubbling, about 2 bubbles per second, it was fast enough to keep a steady surface movement but not enough to really get any good sponge filtration.

It was so weird, they would just bob up and down like they were full of air, and they were totally disinterested in doing anything other than gathering along the edges of the tank nearest to the light.

 

[jetajockey]

and the last round has the same issue, most are hovering at the top in the corner. I moved some of them to a different tank and I noticed that they seem to have some sort of swim bladder issue, they are spinning around and floating upside down at the surface.

I have no idea what's going on, I have 2 other types of fry in the fry tanks that they are in, and they are doing just fine, it's only the rams that are doing it.

 

[Apistomaster]

It might be worth trying to start them in water no deeper than 2 inches and just supply a fine bubble air stone barely running and see if that makes any difference.

 

[jetajockey]

Thanks. I might try that.

I currently have another batch of eggs that were laid on a terra cotta pot. I used a hammer and chisel to break the pot in half, so that way I could leave the eggs in a dip and pour container inside the fry tank. I put some aeration in there also to keep things moving, and this morning the wigglers fell off of the pot. So hopefully they will work out, they've been in fry tank water at the same temp so as soon as they go free swimming im going to let them into the fry tank.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what point this issue occurs. I had one group that a pair actually grew out to free swimming. While they were still wiggling, I sucked some out with a turkey baster and put them in the fry tank. Same issue, all bunched up in the corners, ended up losing all but 1 or 2 from each batch that has done this.


The only answer i've seen is maybe some sort of gas exchange issue possibly. Other than that I have no idea, I just hope I can find a method that will keep them alive.

 

[jetajockey]

Just an update. The current spawn is doing the same thing. I even moved them from the Dip n Pour and into a plastic container to see if maybe it was the light or something attracting them, but here is a pic.

At this point nearly all of them are hung up at the surface. They just stay right at the top and swim back and forth until they get all clustered up in the corners. Think its a genetic defect? I'm considering mixing some golds in with my breeding group just to find out.

I added a small amount of epsom salt just in case their 'extra' buoyancy can be resolved through that means, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything thus far.


I can't believe no one else has had this issue.

 

[Apistomaster]

Since other Electric Blue Ram(EBR) breeders have not reported this odd buoyancy problem it could be that this particular pair is contributing genes which are defective and ultimately lethal.

Your options are of course to try a different male or female or give up on this pair and try a new pair or two.

Are these fry even eating or do they just starve to death?

I have been interested in trying some EBR's because they are new to me having only raised the Blue and the gold strains and I have never seen this problem.
If it is genetic I would probably not try to breed them with a regular blue or Gold since they would be likely to inherit any defective genes if that is what is causing this problem. It is difficult to ascribe this problem to any environmental problem and you know to develop the EBR's a great deal of inbreeding was necessary. if you began with new EBR's and then embarked on out crossing then inbreeding to regain some EBR's with greater genetic diversity that should be beneficial although it would take a couple generations to see any results. I am assuming for discussions sake the EBR trait follows simple Medelian genetics but that may not be true. I lack the necessary experience with this strain to know if any of these options would work except to begin with new EBR which have no known neonatal development problems.

I have just recently begun getting back into raising Apistogramma species again and do not have the extra space to try EBR at this time. I have my A. trifasciata going strong but the allure of trying some Fire Red A. agassizi is higher on my list of priorities. I want one more Apistogramma species, probably A. hongsloi Super Rostriche for a total of 3 Apistogramma species.
It seems like the Fire Red Aggies seem to be pretty viable for such a highly inbred strain from what I can gather. I am raising Hypancistrus L260, Hypancistrus L333, Peckoltia sp L134 Leopard Frogs and am growing out breeding stock of L10a the Red Lizard Whiptail Catfish. Also growing out some F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus. I also resumed breeding Corydoras hastatus and am trying to raise one SA annual Killiefish, Simpsonichthys boitonei in fairly large numbers and have bought eggs and have a pair which are not closely related. I have raised these before and fell in love with the S. boitonei since i saw them on the cover of a 1964 issue of TFH magazine. One of the Apistogramma would have to go to try some EBR but I am intersted in finding out the cause or solution to this EBR problem you are experiencing. Rams can be hard enough to raise without the strange problem you are having with the fry from that one pair.

 

[jetajockey]

Thanks for the reply. I'm currently breeding/rearing danio choprai, devario sondhii, danio margaritatus, corydoras schultzei(black), and tateurndina ocellicauda (peacock gudgeon), along with this ram endeavor.

I actually have 3 pairs of rams at the moment, all from the same source, Mikew. They are all very strong and active fish, I was really surprised when I first got them because they immediately began interacting with anyone that would walk near the tank.

One pair (I think I posted about this earlier) actually reared a spawn to 2-3 days or so freeswimming, and they did just fine, till they ate them. So I'm torn on what exactly is going on. I've tried egg hatching in completely bare tanks, I've done it in fry tanks already containing other fry, and still, only 2-3 rams make it through.

I might've stumbled onto something accidentally yesterday, as I was holding the container full of fry and I had to run outside really quickly. I noticed that as soon as I walked outside they started acting normal, like hanging in the middle of the water column around the java moss that I put in with them.

Coincidence? Probably, but I've never seen them act "normal" like that, so I just left them outside, put a bubbler in the container, popped a lid on and they are sitting on the front porch now.

I even put in a few BBS just to see if they'd react and the cluster in the center were definitely attacking them, so here's for hoping.

I checked on the container after a few hours and I saw some floaters again but it's nothing compared to how they were before putting them outside.

I don't know what the difference is besides temperature, its in mid to upper 80s here in the day so they should be fine as long as I keep them in the shade, but we'll see.

I also segregated a pair into their own 10g to see if they'll spawn and raise without any interference, I don't know if they are the same ones that spawned in the group and raised free swimmers, because I can't tell them apart. I may put in tank dividers next time if a group spawns in the main tank (40b)

I don't know, I'm throwing everything at this issue, I would think if it was genetic then there would be more people discussing it, but that's going to be my last road to travel. Will keep you updated, thanks!

 

[MikeW65]

I can assure you that it is not a genetic issue as I am currently raising fry from siblings to yours without issue. My bet would be that it is a tank or water problem. What I would try would be to set the tank up like you run it and give it a bleach bath to kill anything that could be affecting them and rinse it well and let it dry until the next spawn you want to place in it. If you have access to R/O water fill the tank with that and see if the outcome is different. Is there a lid to the tank that could have anything building up on the underside of? The lowest that I want my fry tank to get as far as temp is 82 as that does seem to affect their activity level from what I have seen.
I have crosses with regular Blues and with Gold that are producing fry so hopefully by the first of next year I will have true breeding outcrossed EBRs as the likely prior inbreeding was a concern of mine. Shoot me an email if you want any details on trying to eliminate possible factors.
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

Mike,

Thanks for the response. The stock is definitely strong, these guys were breeding within the first week of getting settled in. That's why I think it's some sort of external issue.

I don't use tank lids except when getting a good look in the tank (lighting) for cleaning, so for the most part I just have a low powered fluoro strip across several tanks on a rack.


I'll try setting the next round up in a new tank. I actually put one batch to hatch out in a brand new rinsed and filled with tank water gladware container (2g), but had the same result.

However, good news so far, this last batch that I put outside seems to be doing well. I checked on them this morning and they were buried somewhere in the java moss, after a few minutes they started to surface, but then when I placed them back outside they are all through the water column again.

It's so weird. The only difference between inside and outside, that i know of, is the temperature, I was keeping them in 82 degree water in their fry tank, though. One other thing, outside they are on the ground, on the porch, and inside they are about 5 feet in the air, on a rack, I don't know if that somehow factors in with their position though.

The other weird thing is that none of the other fish I'm growing out have done this at all, so it is making the issue hard to narrow down.

 

[MikeW65]

That's interesting, when they are on the rack is there anything under the bottom of the tank? Maybe light from below is confusing them???
That would be an interesting experiment if that is the case! Mine are sitting on an island countertop so there is something under them.
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

No, this rack is divided with plywood. I've also been keeping a thin sand substrate in my 4 fry tanks since I have black corys growing out in them also. (a recent addition, the first few batches of eggs were in a totally bare tank.) The mixture of baby corys, cherry shrimp, pest snails and java moss seem to keep the tanks pretty clean.
I've attempted to cover the top of their tank and I stuck a flashlight at the bottom of the tank pointing in to see if they'd come down and it didn't work.

Whatever it is, they are still going strong outside. I changed their water today and put an eyedropper full of microworms in one side, and they promptly swarmed over to it.

One other thing I noticed, and may test out tomorrow, is that I have their container on the porch, which is only a few inches off of the ground. When I went to pick them up, I was holding them up for a few minutes looking at them, and they all began to come up to the surface. I brought it inside and sat it on the counter top, and after a few minutes they were all floating again.

Then I took it back outside and put it on the ground, and a minute later they were all mid level/bottom.

I put them on a cardboard box outside, about 1 foot high, and they seemed to continue to be active and I *think* they are eating. It's hard to tell, but dropping bbs/microworms in seemed to invoke a reaction, which is promising.

The tank the eggs were laid in is on a rack about 6-8 inches off of the floor.

I don't know what else to comparison test but if you come up with anything I'll definitely give it a go.

 

[MikeW65]

Have you tried setting them on the floor inside? Wonder if the elevation could cause a pressure change or something strange like that!
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

Mindreader. Yeah I tried that a few days ago. The only thing that was a factor was whether they were inside or outside, which was the strangest thing because I had them literally 3 feet away from each space, on each side of the wall. All I can think is that something about the sunlight that was causing them to act normal. I put them in the window sill and I couldn't really tell, because it was cloudy yesterday. The temps dropped to around 60 outside last night, so when I got him this morning I brought them in. Their container was really cold, but most of them are still alive.

I pulled about a dozen or so dead ones so far, but the majority are still doing well, and visibily eating bbs. I've kept them inside on the floor all morning, and at this point most of them are still swimming around the bottom, there are a few on the top but they are still eating, so whatever it was that was causing this seems to have passed.

The next round that I artificially hatch I am going to test this more.

In other news, I have a pair in a 10g all by themselves and they just laid eggs on a pot last night, I took some paper and covered the tank walls so that they are less jumpy about movement, so hopefully they will grow them out.

 

[MikeW65]

If sunlight is the only difference it may be worth looking into getting a clamp on desk lamp to see if that may be the cause. I wasn't sure how cold your nights get there but didn't think that sounded like a long term solution!
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

Yeah I'm not sure but I'll keep testing with different things to see if the problem can be eliminated all together. I'm hoping it's just a fluke, or tank related, but we'll see, now that I have a breeding set in their own tank.

The weather here has been in the high 70s at night all summer, all the way up until a few days ago. It caught everyone by surprise I think.

I just checked on them and most are on the bottom, but there are about 10 or so floating at the top. They seem to be actively swimming though, and have food in their bellies, so I'm just going to leave it be.

 

[jetajockey]

Just another update. The numbers have thinned a bit, Doing a water change today there are about 20-30 survivors so far.

The pair that laid eggs in the 10g decided to eat them, so I sent them back to the general population tank, and then moved the fry to the 10 for a hopefully more stable tank.

As of last night when I left for work, there was about 10 or so bunched in the top corners, a few of them seemed too buoyant, as in they'd swim down and as soon as they'd stop, they'd float back up to the top as if they had water wings on.

But still, the vast majority are down near the bottom, in the corners, and all seem to be eating at this point.