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Different styles of keeping apistos. US vs Asian

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
I found the US people like to provide a more natural looking environment that is similar to apistos habitat. They use sandy bottom, dead leaves and drift woods. The Asians are totally different. They use black soil granules bottom,a lot of green vegetation, clear water. I believe that the Asians, espesially Taiwanese n Hong Kong people tend to do a lot of things (techniques) to alter the fish, to change their appearance, to make them look even better than in nature, like more colorful, more extended fins, more slim body shape. I have been in both us and hong kong forums for a while, and found they keep apistos in two different styles of aquariums. Will the American do a lot of things to change their apistos' look like the Asians do? e.g. Special diet , water parameter to make them more red n more blue ,increase flow rate to keep them skinny, place mirror regularly to make their fins grow.
 

Mike Wise

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10,635
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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Personally, I think that the major differences between US and Asian apisto keepers is that American have the luxury of more space, so keep larger tanks. We also tend to spread our income over more interests (house, car, multiple hobbies, etc.) and spend less on fish. I find Asian hobbyist willing to spend more on rarer species and use more technology in their tanks. One is not necessarily worse than the other. As the saying goes, "different strokes for different folks".
 

slimbolen99

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
550
Location
Shawnee, KS
Don't forget the folks in the UK/European regions. That's a big reason I thoroughly enjoy this forum -- you get to see setups from all over the world. Seems the folks in Europe get some of the newer and rarer apistos quicker than here in the US; but with folks like Aquatic Clarity stepping up their game, we still get some good stuff once in a while.
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
I think the German and Japs have the most advanced technologies/methods on aquatic things. I told the shop keeper I wanted to set up a natural look tank with fine sand on the bottom, like the American usually do. He then, said I should never do that, the sand could not maintain low ph, and the light color would make the apisto look pale.
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
it is a very bad pic taken by an iphone. it is the male with orange belly. damaged fins(dissolved fins) caused by changing water from the habitat to local water by the shop keeper. will grow back soon.
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
IMG 3960
IMG 3961
IMG 4015
 

Linus_Cello

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
276
Location
Washington DC
It seems that the middle east area also follows a more "asian" line of fish keeping (not surprising as water is scarce in desert areas). There was a nasty thread on a catfish related forum where folks in the Netherlands were criticizing an Israeli pleco keeper for a "stamp collecting" type of aquarium (one of each type of pleco, but there were also rift lake cichlids in the tank too). I guess this person in Israel was restricted by space, like in Asia.

What I enjoy about this forum is that there is no judgment by keepers who either are interested in keeping "pretty fish" (a male only dwarf chiclid tank), and those who specialize in breeding blackwater wild stock. But yes, community tanks are not breeding tanks...
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,518
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
There was a nasty thread on a catfish related forum where folks in the Netherlands were criticizing an Israeli pleco keeper for a "stamp collecting" type of aquarium (one of each type of pleco, but there were also rift lake cichlids in the tank too), I guess this person in Israel was restricted by space, like in Asia.
Wasn't only in the Netherlands, that was me! The thread is now locked (it is on PC), but I stand by my comments, and to be honest, and I know it isn't very grown up, but "he started it".
I told the shop keeper I wanted to set up a natural look tank with fine sand on the bottom, like the American usually do. He then, said I should never do that, the sand could not maintain low ph, and the light color would make the apisto look pale.
Some substrates with a high CEC and low base percent saturation, like Akadama will lower pH and conductivity, (the exchange sites are filled with H+ ions, which are exchanged for metal ions according to the lyotropic series and concentration gradient), but silica sand in inert and won't make the pH rise. It is a bit white, which is why people tend to use dead leaves and or planting. The only real problem I would have with "planted tank" substrates is that the grain size is a bit big.
I think the German .......
It isn't really a nationality thing, but I'd definitely go with the N. Europeans in Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia etc as having the best tanks and set ups. I don't think it really matter where you come from, or what your set up is, I think the real difference is between being a fish keeper, who is interested in the fish that they can care for properly, and being a fish haver who is interested in having the fish they want, whatever their requirements. I don't think many Apistogramma keepers are "fish havers".

cheers Darrel
 

Ruki

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
297
Location
Krakow- Poland
In Poland we also have a many apisto keepers who are really good in natural looking tanks. "Hi-tech" tanks are really rare here. The latest fashion(after shrimps and nature aquarium) is exactly a black water tanks, in many case with Apisto. :) A really good access to wild Apisto( in peruvian Apisto we are equal with Germany) is making it easier. . :)

Hi all,
Some substrates with a high CEC and low base percent saturation, like Akadama will lower pH and conductivity, (the exchange sites are filled with H+ ions, which are exchanged for metal ions according to the lyotropic series and concentration gradient), but silica sand in inert and won't make the pH rise. It is a bit white, which is why people tend to use dead leaves and or planting. The only real problem I would have with "planted tank" substrates is that the grain size is a bit big.
I've this privilege that I can test many DIY substrates. And I've found many types of sand that isn't white and won't make pH rise. :) But for searching time is needed. And of course- no limestone in few houndreds of kilometers. :) Because of it we've funny situation with sand from main polish river- Vistula. In my location sand is making a pH rise(good for cichlids from rift lakes ;) ) but 300 kilometers downstream sand is already neutral. It's because of limestone and
Below my "latest"(from half a year ago :) ) discovery:
piasek2.jpg

From black water creek in Poland. :)
sand3t.jpg


After sifting(it's a mix of sand and gravel) it's realy nice subsrate for Apisto and kribs. Below photo of my 250l with P. humilis and B. nigrodorsalis
humilisy.jpg
 

Rod

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
196
Location
Brisbane,Australia
I suspect the comment re sand changing ph refers to the most common type of white sand....calcium carbonate

I grew up in a time when everyone kept fish in planted tanks......but I think we have a better understanding of the fish we keep these days

looking at natural habitats of many apistos.....a sandy bottom with drift wood and lots of dead leaves seems true to type.....many apistos like to sand sift....which they can't do with commercial Plant substrates....and these round balls must trap uneaten food and waste....not good for long term water quality

Au naturale....my vote
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
I suspect the comment re sand changing ph refers to the most common type of white sand....calcium carbonate

I grew up in a time when everyone kept fish in planted tanks......but I think we have a better understanding of the fish we keep these days

looking at natural habitats of many apistos.....a sandy bottom with drift wood and lots of dead leaves seems true to type.....many apistos like to sand sift....which they can't do with commercial Plant substrates....and these round balls must trap uneaten food and waste....not good for long term water quality

Au naturale....my vote
G'day mate. i am surprised that there is Aussie apistos keeper here. can you find apistos in Australia easily?
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
In Poland we also have a many apisto keepers who are really good in natural looking tanks. "Hi-tech" tanks are really rare here. The latest fashion(after shrimps and nature aquarium) is exactly a black water tanks, in many case with Apisto. :) A really good access to wild Apisto( in peruvian Apisto we are equal with Germany) is making it easier. . :)


I've this privilege that I can test many DIY substrates. And I've found many types of sand that isn't white and won't make pH rise. :) But for searching time is needed. And of course- no limestone in few houndreds of kilometers. :) Because of it we've funny situation with sand from main polish river- Vistula. In my location sand is making a pH rise(good for cichlids from rift lakes ;) ) but 300 kilometers downstream sand is already neutral. It's because of limestone and
Below my "latest"(from half a year ago :) ) discovery:
piasek2.jpg

From black water creek in Poland. :)
sand3t.jpg


After sifting(it's a mix of sand and gravel) it's realy nice subsrate for Apisto and kribs. Below photo of my 250l with P. humilis and B. nigrodorsalis
humilisy.jpg
unfortunately i cant read any of your pics. in china, we have these Japanese bottom sand for catfish. this type of sand has the smallest pellets and is neutral in PH. pls see the pic
Shuyu
 

Rod

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
196
Location
Brisbane,Australia
I think you will find a number of Aussies frequent this site.....

We have been fortunate over the last 18 months and quite a number of Apisto's and other dwarfs have been imported
The big importers are always bringing in aggies,cauc's borelli......but I do know some of the smaller importers aren't as keen because...given dwarfs are a hobbyist fish....they can get stung if they aren't sent pairs
 

aquaticclarity

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,801
Location
Richfield, WI
Don't forget the folks in the UK/European regions. That's a big reason I thoroughly enjoy this forum -- you get to see setups from all over the world. Seems the folks in Europe get some of the newer and rarer apistos quicker than here in the US; but with folks like Aquatic Clarity stepping up their game, we still get some good stuff once in a while.

:D Now if I could only move the fish out! The fish can be had but I just haven't found enough buyers in the high end Apistos to keep them coming in. Moving 6-8 pair is nice but then sitting on another 15-20 pair really limits my ability to bring in additional "rare" and/or expensive Apistos.
 

tjudy

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5 Year Member
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2,822
Location
Stoughton, WI
I think that the biggest SIMILARITY is that most hobbyists spend about the same percentage of their disposable income on their hobby regardless of where they are at. The DIFFERENCES are in scale. In the USA we tend to have a lot of aquariums compared to other areas of the world. I maintain about 60 aquariums, but my room is small compared to a lot that I see here. The amount of money I spend per tank is less what is spent on the average hobbyist tank in Europe or Asia.

I have to disagree, however, that the hobby, skill of hobbyists, quality of stock, advancement of technology or ay other factor is worse in the USA than in the rest of the world. From the point of view of breeding, for example, take away the purely commercial breeders in Eastern Europe and SEA, and I think that there are more species being spawned in the USA than anywhere else in the world; but that is more a function of focus on breeding, the number of tanks we keep and the relatively lax rules we have on distribution of fish.

We actually COMPETE over here in the hobby of fish breeding. Serious breeders will spawn 30+ species of fish (which they have not spawned before) each year. That is not the same as a person spawning three pairs of angels over and over again, or even a person specializing in only dwarf cichlids, cories or plecos for money. The collective knowledge of fish breeding in the USA is huge and diverse... now if we could only get everyone to write it all down :rolleyes:.

What's your total Jeff? I have lost count of mine, because I have not always been involved with the programs that help keep track. But I estimate well over 500... I have been actively breeding fish for 25+ years, and in the past 6 years averaged 30 a year (tossing out 2010 when I spawned 152... but several were repeats of fish I spawned before). But I cannot compare to breeders like Charley Grimes, Rosario Lacorte, Mike Hellweg, Chase Kleinfelter, Jeff Michels and many many other hobbyist breeders who do not crow as much as I do. We have a member in our local club (Michael Laursen) who has the steepest learning curve I have ever seen in a relatively young hobbyist (Jeff will laugh about that, but he needs to see what Michael has accomplished here in Madison in the past couple years). We have a relatively new hobbyist in Milwaukee (Rob) who seems to have a bit of a wet thumb with breeding as well... I suspect that in ten years he will be seen as a pretty elite breeder.

I will admit it... o_O I get a little irked by the somewhat frequent suggestions by non Americans that somehow our skills or hobby in the USA are less than somewhere else. Then numbers do not bear it. USA rocks!
 

edwliang

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
152
Location
Guangdong China
i downloaded some pics that taken by Taiwanese Apisto keepers. You can see they are more colorful, (more red) than any other pics that taken by American keepers. Because Asian has special techniques rearing Apistos. Soil + lot of plants will do the trick. Sandy bottom although provides similar environment like their habitat, it will never make the fish look better.

Menmen

Men
Dende
I think that the biggest SIMILARITY is that most hobbyists spend about the same percentage of their disposable income on their hobby regardless of where they are at. The DIFFERENCES are in scale. In the USA we tend to have a lot of aquariums compared to other areas of the world. I maintain about 60 aquariums, but my room is small compared to a lot that I see here. The amount of money I spend per tank is less what is spent on the average hobbyist tank in Europe or Asia.

I have to disagree, however, that the hobby, skill of hobbyists, quality of stock, advancement of technology or ay other factor is worse in the USA than in the rest of the world. From the point of view of breeding, for example, take away the purely commercial breeders in Eastern Europe and SEA, and I think that there are more species being spawned in the USA than anywhere else in the world; but that is more a function of focus on breeding, the number of tanks we keep and the relatively lax rules we have on distribution of fish.

We actually COMPETE over here in the hobby of fish breeding. Serious breeders will spawn 30+ species of fish (which they have not spawned before) each year. That is not the same as a person spawning three pairs of angels over and over again, or even a person specializing in only dwarf cichlids, cories or plecos for money. The collective knowledge of fish breeding in the USA is huge and diverse... now if we could only get everyone to write it all down :rolleyes:.

What's your total Jeff? I have lost count of mine, because I have not always been involved with the programs that help keep track. But I estimate well over 500... I have been actively breeding fish for 25+ years, and in the past 6 years averaged 30 a year (tossing out 2010 when I spawned 152... but several were repeats of fish I spawned before). But I cannot compare to breeders like Charley Grimes, Rosario Lacorte, Mike Hellweg, Chase Kleinfelter, Jeff Michels and many many other hobbyist breeders who do not crow as much as I do. We have a member in our local club (Michael Laursen) who has the steepest learning curve I have ever seen in a relatively young hobbyist (Jeff will laugh about that, but he needs to see what Michael has accomplished here in Madison in the past couple years). We have a relatively new hobbyist in Milwaukee (Rob) who seems to have a bit of a wet thumb with breeding as well... I suspect that in ten years he will be seen as a pretty elite breeder.

I will admit it... o_O I get a little irked by the somewhat frequent suggestions by non Americans that somehow our skills or hobby in the USA are less than somewhere else. Then numbers do not bear it. USA rocks!
 

Rod

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
196
Location
Brisbane,Australia
Sorry...can't agree
A colorful fish maybe good aquatic skills.....but it could also be colour feeding

I've noticed very colorful juvie fish on Asian websites.....???
 

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Hallo,
I am Hanzle from Holland and keep apistoos for 40 years. Had my own aquarium shop from 1984 till 1988. Always s great fan from apistoos and hyphessobrycon which is s great combination in a Community Aquarium. Perhaps.....in the near future I start breeding apistoos again. Have a 400 liters Community aquarium for hyphessobrycon wadai and apistogramma biteaniata.
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Hi Fred, do you have any apistos for sale? I'm looking for Apistogramma trifasciata. I'm about an hour and a half from Mtl.
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