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Confused by the terms triple red, quad red, super red, etc.

tolstoy21

New Member
Messages
8
I have to admit that the terms for Apistogramma Cacatuoides such as quad and super red confuse the heck out of me.

I have been breeding A. Cacs for the past couple years, working to get them to spawn true with nice deep orange coloration and patterning in the dorsal, caudal, anal, and ventral fins, and not throw any offspring with uncolored ventrals. I sell these as 'triple reds'.

However, I often see the same fish sold as 'super reds', 'quad reds', etc. Is 'quad red' a thing? I know that none of these terms are a 'thing' in a true scientific, species identification kind of way, but is this an agreed upon convention used in the hobby community at large that a fish bred to have colored ventrals is a 'quad' and not a 'triple' red?

Likewise, I'm confused by the 'red' in the fish's name. To me they appear more of orange to blood-orange in coloration, at best. So, if that's what meant by the term 'red' the are 'super reds' simply a deeper, richer orange? Or does this have more to do with the black and orange flame patterning? Or can one find specimens that truly have dominant red coloration in their fins?

I know all this is just semantics, but what are everyone's feelings on this topic?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
There is basically no logic behind the trade names. Every breeder can call his strains whatever they want and to my knowledge there are no patented strains and as such all names are free for use.
It can take just a lackluster IT person that enters the names into an online shop without any knowledge and other people find that store and make the connection "This fish is a "super red" apistogramma!" And as you can tell by that example this also lead to people thinking there are no other species.
Speaking of which, some strains of A. macmasteri are called "viejita" which has lead to people being disappointed or very surprised when they see an actual A. viejita.

Among collectors and specialists these domestic strains have almost no relevance. Which, in my opinion, can be seen very well here on the forum. Most are not very invested when there are questions about the domestic strains. And I myself have to admit, I advise people to maybe grow out one spawn of them to learn the basics of dwarf cichlid breeding and then switch to a different species, as these fish quickly overrun the local market to the point nobody wants them.
I can see that in my country recently, domestic A. cacatuoides are disappearing from the stores and online retailers, mostly because the fish are overbred even worse than Mikrogeophagus lately. People that offer privately on ebay are often in serious trouble when it comes to tank space.
 

tolstoy21

New Member
Messages
8
People that offer privately on ebay are often in serious trouble when it comes to tank space.

Agreed. And thanks for responding.

I do, in fact, sell on fish ebay and other places.

Last year I could not breed enough A. Cacatuoides to keep up with the demand. This year, the demand is much, much lighter. I chalk this up partially to the heat wave going here right now, but also because I speculate the market is becoming saturated with A. Cacatuoides at the current moment.

I'm not really that interested in the 'trade' naming of fish. I'm just trying to understand what the deal is with all the various, and to me, confusing/meaningless names, for certain species.

In my opinion, the basis for buying a fish should be based on if fish looks attractive to you, what you want to see swimming in your aquarium on a daily basis, what you like to see in fish behaviorally, and, of course, if it's healthy. But we all know that's not how marketing works, unfortunately.

Anyway, don't want to open up a can of worms, just asking if these names for things are standard, understood and accepted by the majority of people interested in a specific species, or if it's more loosey-goosey than that.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I'm not really that interested in the 'trade' naming of fish. I'm just trying to understand what the deal is with all the various, and to me, confusing/meaningless names, for certain species.
Then I'll put it in other words: Trade naming is the root of the names of domestic strains. There is little logic to it, new names are coined just to formally distinguish from competitors without any differences that would warrant a different name.
or if it's more loosey-goosey than that.
Just concerning domestic strains: Seeing the same strains sold under up to 8 different names - As loosey-goosey as it gets.


A different thing is the naming of scientifically undescribed wild species and variants. Those are either named after the location or a physical characteristic. These have at least some kind of convention in naming that doesn't apply to domestic forms.
There are D-numbers, parallel to L- or C-Numbers for catfish, combined with "sp." meaning "species" you get names like Apistogramma sp. "D5".
There is also the possibility to name them more scientifically. "sp." can then be followed by a physical characteristic or a location. E.g. Apistogramma sp. "Breitbinden" (meaning "broad banded").
There is also the option to use "cf." (= lat. "confer" = "compare") when the fish is very similar to a known species but still distinguished, often followed by the location. Example: Apistogramma cf. agassizii "Tapajós"
All of these usually disappear as soon as the species is officially described.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
... Last year I could not breed enough A. Cacatuoides to keep up with the demand. This year, the demand is much, much lighter. I chalk this up partially to the heat wave going here right now, but also because I speculate the market is becoming saturated with A. Cacatuoides at the current moment.....
I think that it is a common finding. I live in the S. of the UK, where we have hard water, and I've been in a situation where I couldn' t give away Apistogramma that were selling (or I'd guess not selling) in shops for £20 a pair.

There are only a limited number of people who want to buy a specific fish at any specific time.

Cheers Darrel
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
cockatoo are not always easy fish to keep and i see a lot of people are buying them because they were hyped for 15 and 29 gallon community tank and perhaps learning they are not a great fish to keep in such an environment. injecting bias but i really dislike cockatoo of all forms; just don't see why they were ever that popular but i know a lot of people swear by them.
 

Wazaaaa

Active Member
Messages
106
Location
France
Also, I prefer natural fish to genetically modified fish, it's just a question of ethics for me that I try to pass on to as many people as possible
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I want to say it goes further than just looks that turn me off on cockatoo. I think of them as lumbering tanks. One of the fishes that I like a lot is my nannacara anomala which i find to have a much more interesting behavior. I can't sa if wild cockatoo behavior differ significantly than domestic strains as I've not had them. Anyway i guess this is off topic. As for naming I think a lot of it has to do with marketing/$$$. After all if a naive shopper see triple red then it must be 'better' than a mere double red ;)
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Also, I prefer natural fish to genetically modified fish, it's just a question of ethics for me that I try to pass on to as many people as possible
There are luckily no genetically modified fish in circulation in Europe (like Glo-fish in the US) and all breeds that are far off the wild forms are ... well, just breeds. They have been bred (and in-bred) for certain characteristics over generations. Most farmbred fish you get today should be about 50+ generations away from their wild ancestors.
 

Bowluvr

Member
Messages
46
Location
North Carolina
No one has actually answered your question about the reasoning behind the naming of domestic cacatuoides strains, so I can:

All Orange cacatuoides are Orange cacatuoides. Whatever they are called, orange is orange, really.

It's a bit different with Red cacatuoides. DOUBLE Red has the red/black patterning on TWO fins/fin sets - Dorsal and Caudal. TRIPLE Red cacs have the red/black patterning on THREE fins/fin sets - Dorsal, Caudal, and Anal. QUAD Red and Super Red are essentially the same. They have the red/black patterning on four - Dorsal, Caudal, Anal, and Pelvics. Not just the black forward edging on the pelvics, but distinct patterning of red/black similar to what is seen on the other fins. The quality of each fish within each type many vary, with better or worse color pattern saturation and spread through the fins, but if two fin sets have the coloring, even if not full coverage, they are Double Reds. If three fin sets have it, regardless of quality, they are Triple Reds. It simply denotes how many fins/fin sets the red/black patterning has been spread to.

I hope this helps. :)
 

Bowluvr

Member
Messages
46
Location
North Carolina
No one has actually answered your question about the reasoning behind the naming of domestic cacatuoides strains, so I can:

All Orange cacatuoides are Orange cacatuoides. Whatever they are called, orange is orange, really.

It's a bit different with Red cacatuoides. DOUBLE Red has the red/black patterning on TWO fins/fin sets - Dorsal and Caudal. TRIPLE Red cacs have the red/black patterning on THREE fins/fin sets - Dorsal, Caudal, and Anal. QUAD Red and Super Red are essentially the same. They have the red/black patterning on FOUR - Dorsal, Caudal, Anal, and Pelvics. Not just the black forward edging on the pelvics, but distinct patterning of red/black similar to what is seen on the other fins. The quality of each fish within each type many vary, with better or worse color, pattern, saturation, and spread through the fins, but if two fin sets have the coloring, even if not full coverage, they are Double Reds. If three fin sets have it, regardless of quality, they are Triple Reds. It simply denotes how many fins/fin sets the red/black patterning has been spread to.

I hope this helps. :)
Single Red would be red/black patterning in just the caudal fin. One rarely sees those.
 

Bowluvr

Member
Messages
46
Location
North Carolina
There is basically no logic behind the trade names. Every breeder can call his strains whatever they want and to my knowledge there are no patented strains and as such all names are free for use.
It can take just a lackluster IT person that enters the names into an online shop without any knowledge and other people find that store and make the connection "This fish is a "super red" apistogramma!" And as you can tell by that example this also lead to people thinking there are no other species.
Speaking of which, some strains of A. macmasteri are called "viejita" which has lead to people being disappointed or very surprised when they see an actual A. viejita.

Among collectors and specialists these domestic strains have almost no relevance. Which, in my opinion, can be seen very well here on the forum. Most are not very invested when there are questions about the domestic strains. And I myself have to admit, I advise people to maybe grow out one spawn of them to learn the basics of dwarf cichlid breeding and then switch to a different species, as these fish quickly overrun the local market to the point nobody wants them.
I can see that in my country recently, domestic A. cacatuoides are disappearing from the stores and online retailers, mostly because the fish are overbred even worse than Mikrogeophagus lately. People that offer privately on ebay are often in serious trouble when it comes to tank space.
Not really true, at least with cacatuoides. I replied in detail below. Unlike with many other fish, there is actually logic behind the naming of Red cacatuoides. :)
 

Bowluvr

Member
Messages
46
Location
North Carolina
Orange fish are distinctly orange in comparison to reds, which are reddish orange when properly fed and cared for (and the strain is a decent one). Orange fish also have no black patterning in the fins outside of the standard bit of black edging seen in all cacatuoides. Females of Orange strain fish also tend to have a fair amount of color in their dorsal, anal, and caudal fins, again, with no extra black patterning. Once you really see them comapred, they are distinct.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Not really true, at least with cacatuoides. I replied in detail below. Unlike with many other fish, there is actually logic behind the naming of Red cacatuoides. :)
Originally maybe, but the trade (this time I mean specifically the industry) has led it ad absurdum. Nothing is sold correctly labeled anymore. Especially in continental Europe the meaning is completely lost. If it sounds impressive it is put on the label.
 

Bowluvr

Member
Messages
46
Location
North Carolina
Originally maybe, but the trade (this time I mean specifically the industry) has led it ad absurdum. Nothing is sold correctly labeled anymore. Especially in continental Europe the meaning is completely lost. If it sounds impressive it is put on the label.
People may abuse the terms or get them wrong (accidentally or on purpose), but that is the method for naming, as well as the method for purchasing. If the fish only has two fin sets properly colored and patterned, then it's a double red regardless of what the seller calls it. Knowing why they were originally labeled the way they were means that the seller can use this to know what they are actually buying... and to then buy appropriately. They can also school sellers on what the fish really should be called and call out over-pricing. The proper method for naming has never changed. It's just being abused. Since it's pretty obvious to tell what is a triple, double, or quad/super red cacatuoides, a buyer who understands this can hold sellers accountable and refuse to pay extra for anything that is obviously not extra. :)
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
It's just being abused.
The naming convention has been abused indeed. I haven't met a single retailer or wholesaler that knew this system. Many openly admit to deliberately change things for marketing reasons.
Since it's pretty obvious to tell what is a triple, double, or quad/super red cacatuoides, a buyer who understands this can hold sellers accountable and refuse to pay extra for anything that is obviously not extra. :)
In a perfect world... Accountability is out the window for this continent, then.

In the end I can just not bother as I can't stand the fish in question anyways.
 
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