Blue Rams - eaten eggs

[erik_dgcc]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this sight and hope you can help. I have 9 rams along with some other fish in a 75 gallon tank. One pair of blue rams have laid eggs for the second time . The first time my tank was not fully cycled and the eggs were eaten by whom I don't know. This time my tank is cycled and I noticed the eggs last night on one of my silk plants. What should I do this time to make sure the eggs survive? Any help would by greatly appreciated.

 

[aspen]

you can remove the eggs and hatch them artificially, or you can remove the pair away from the pressure of their tankmates and hope they spawn for you. ime, in a community setting rams will eat their eggs or fry before other species get them. it is their way of preserving their energy for themselves, instead of letting other species getting it.

rick

 

[Charlotte]

this worked for me...

Dear Erik,

I have had success waiting for a couple tp pair up, and then putting them in their own 10 gal right before they are ready to spawn. You will know they are going to when you see them pair up, the female's belly is somewhat plump and turning darker, and they may get more aggressive. The biggest signs are if they start cleaning a site and/or drop breeding tubes. I then put them in their own tank that has already been cycled.

It helps A LOT if you drop the pH in the tank down to about 5.0 or so, as the eggs don't seem to fungus at all. I read this on a website, and after trying it went to nearly 100% hatch rate of the eggs laid. Also, a temp of about 80-82 F will help them hatch a little quicker and keep everyone more comfortable (another reason that their own tank can be helpful). I reccomed a foam filter so the babies can eat off of it, and that you start putting a drop of liqui-fry over the pile of wigglers twice a day as soon as they start moving around, but before they are free swimming. This way, they can actually eat baby brine as soon as they are free swimming, which REALLY seemed to give my last batch a good jump ahead on life!

I have had no success in my community tank, but two successful spawns using the methods described above. The fry are 17 days old (from the date the parents laid the eggs) from the second spawn, and they are doing really well, with maybe 80 to 100 babies left, and the mom looks really gravid again, and I think she may spawn again. My point is the low pH, high temp, and clean water together seem to get them to spawn, and they aren't eating the eggs or fry.

Finally, I agree with Neil on leaving at least one parent with the fry as they eat better that way, and the parent will do nice little things like put the fry "to bed at night" (in a nice little pile), lead them to food between your feedings, etc., and they seem to provide a good degree of a "feeling of security" to the babies, too. Mine moved the eggs as they were hatching, and I was just sure that they ate them, but wait at least 7 or 8 days just in case they only hid them. I hope this helps! Good Luck.

-Charlotte

 

[Neil]

eric_dgcc,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM


I agree with aspen. If you have quite a few fish in that tank, though it is fairly large, the fry don't have the best chance. Even if the rams don't eat the eggs, they will have one heck of a time defending a fry-cloud that has a tendancy to spead out quickly a few days after they are free-swimming.

You may try a site search on "rams" to hear some of the things other people have done.
Good luck, Neil

 

[erik_dgcc]

Thanks for the advice. This morning I noticed all the eggs were gone. I did notice another set of eggs by two other rams though. I went out and purchased a 20 gallon tank last night and plan on taking 15 or 18 gallons straight off the top of my 75 and put it in the 20 tonight.

You mentioned putting them in a cycled tank. My question is twofold. First, if I use this straight for breeding purposes and nothing is breeding, how do I keep the bacteria alive? Should I put tetras in there for good and when the rams are breeding just stick them in there as well or will they still feel threatened and eat the eggs with any fish in there? Can I put any other fish in the tank? Next, if I don't notice them breeding until after the eggs are already laid, how do I move the eggs, i.e. do they have to stay in water or can I just take out the plant that their on and move it. If this happens should I move both parents or just one or none?

I know these may sound like stupid questions but I never have had a breeding tank. I've always just let things happpen.

Everyones help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BrandonW]

Charlotte-
Hi, i am currently attempting to breed blue rams. I was wondering how do i lower my ph to 5.0? Thanks

Brandon

 

[aspen]

what kind of filtration do you have on the 75 gal? all you need to do is somehow rob enough of the media to start another tank. if you have a canister with bio-noodles, f/i, you can take some out and place them in the bottom of an aquaclear, and you won't have to cycle the new tank at all. if you show any amm or nitrite in the new tank, you didn't rob enough. if so, take more.

rick

 

[Z Man]

As far as I am concerned, Ram eggs are one of the more difficult to work with. My pH is closer to 6.5 and I have had good success. I believe the main problem with their eggs is hardness. Unless the water is very, yes very soft, the eggs usually don't hatch. If the water is not soft enough, I believe the parents know that and they eat the eggs. Rams are also terrible parents so raising the eggs to fry is almost always out of the question in a community tank. The only way I have been able to get spawns to survive is place a pair in their own tank, raise the temperature to about 82F and remove both adults after they are finished. I don't remember ever having the parents raise their own fry.

 

[erik_dgcc]

Z-Man,
Thanks for the reply. My PH is 6.5 also and I have had ram eggs 4 different times now by 3 different pairs, so I would definately have to agree with you on that. My GH is about 3 - 4 drops (can't remember the specifics) so I will try to lower that in my new 20 gallon tank. Thanks for the comments.

 

[Charlotte]

Dear Erik,

Your questions about the breeding tank are all very good ones. I use Seachem Discus Buffer. They say it will only get the pH to 5.8, but they lie. :wink: It is easy to get to 5.0 or 5.5 in a ten gallon, and probably the same in a 20. Peat in a filter media bag tied near your filter will also help a lot with hormones and such, and they also make "black water expert" that I think is like peat tea concentrate.

Others will have to tell you about moving eggs after they are laid, as I do not know, but to get them before they spawn, you just have to get to know your fish. Mine always spawn between 9:30 and 10:30 p.m. or so like clockwork. Just watch your fish, get to know their personalities, and watch for two that are pairing up, maybe cleaning a spot or digging a pit. Or maybe when they hang out a lot and defend the areas where you have seen the eggs before. Put a smalish piece of slate in the tank and that might help if you can see them cleaning it. (Then send it with them to their new breeding tank or have one in there in case they want to use it.)

I just use 2 or 3 $0.10 feeder goldfish to keep a tank conditioned before adding serious fish, and then they just go in a pitcher on my kitchen counter with daily water changes until their cycling services are needed again. (True story...) I use them because they are easy, and they can survive in a pitcher with no heater or filter when I don't have room for them elsewhere. Take this with a grain of salt, though. I have been warned that they can carry diseases, and I think I just got lucky as far as these being healthy.

I know rams have a reputation for being crappy parents, but that is not always the case. So far all of mine have been excellent loving attentive parents for their fry. Just give them low pH, no hardness, warm water, and excellently clean water to start, and they will probably do fine. It really depends on the personality of the individual fish, and some will be bad parents, but I believe if you give them a chance and good conditions, they will surprise you! The pair I am working with now ate their first spawn, but their second one they kept over a hundred babies until they were ready to spawn again (female very plump and cleaning the slate she likes to lay on). So they were moved to another tank, and laid about three times as many eggs this time!! Mine ALWAYS hide them just before they hatch, so don't automatically think that they ate them. These two are just two random fish from local pet stores, a German female and a long-finned gold male. They were no one special, and probably artificially raised themselves. Just give each pair two or three tries with the right conditions and with out changing anything around and no other fish with them. Patience will pay off. After a while, rams start to seem easy- if only these Panduros could get in the mood...

Sorry for being so long winded- hope this helps. Feel free to call or write if I can help any more.

GOOD LUCK!!

-Charlotte

 

[Neil]

Charlotte,
Panduros can give you nightmares :twisted: .
Hey! Your getting to be an ole pro at this. I haven't used Seachem Discus Buffer, but it sounds like you have wonderful results. Mordor might benefit from this info.
I love the fact that you are raising these Rams with their parents. It doesn't happen that often and I really believe that the fry benefit from the parental influence. If more people were able to do that , I bet we would have so many discussions about artificial rearing of Ram fry. But, alas, you are one of the few! Keep it up and start treatening your panduro with a trip to the fish store! . Neil