Blackwater tank with leaf litter -> Cyano bacteria

[Stijn1191]

Hi all, starting a new thread since I was hijacking another one ;-)

I have some cyano bacteria problems in my blackwater biotope aquarium, mainly in the leaf litter (where some 'liquid CO2" helps against if i spray on it with a syringe) and in the floating plants. Anyone else have this problem and know some easy/good fixes? 100% RO water here, no NO3 and PO4.

240L (90cmx60cmx45cm, LxWxH)


Thanks in advance!

 

[Mazan]

As I mentioned in my other thread I have experienced this issue - similar sized tank 240l (120 x 40 x 50cm) and not actually blackwater but very soft. It has happened a couple of times, when I let the leaf litter build up over time then I start to get Cyanobacteria on the leaf litter and the roots of the floating plants. I have not tried anything to cure this, just try to remove everything affected. A while ago I removed nearly all the leaf litter and the problem has not reappeared yet. But I want to start adding more soon. Nitrates are usually close to zero, not sure about phosphates.

 

[anewbie]

I've had issue with cyano bacteria when i start blackwater aquarium and i treat with chemiclean when i think i is necessary. In a few case a 2nd treatment is required (the stuff is cheap enough and easy enough to use that isn't an issue). However it after treatment it never seems to come back. I'm not 100% sure what triggers it in the new aquariums - maybe it is similar to diatoms (though not eating silicon). I have 14 aquariums now so i've been able to track these things to a limited extent. However none of these aquarium are more than a year old since i moved last year (sept 2023) so i might have more data in the future.

I did have one non-blackwater aquarium with a small patch where nitrogen was being released from bacteria eating nitrate - it was very localized and i could fix the problem by adding current so maybe the cyano is being triggered by excess nitrogen.

Anyway so far i've not noticed any health issues with chemiclean and it is my understanding salt water folks have this problem frequently and are more prone to use similar chemicals without negative effects.

 

[Stijn1191]

Hmm maybe a tank-wide treatment is the solution then. Especially the cyano in the floating plants is hard to spot treat. Unfortunately, chemiclean is not sold in Europe. Anyone from Europe know a safe alternative (since i have WC fish i doubt about chemicals/medicines).

 

[Mazan]

I haven't ever seen chemiclean here, but once a long time ago I got hold of Ultra life blue green stain remover (something like that) and it it worked with one dose, but I have not been able to get it again.

It hasn't happened to me in new tanks, rather those that have been long established and if I let too much leaf litter build up.

 

[MacZ]

Anyone from Europe know a safe alternative (since i have WC fish i doubt about chemicals/medicines).

Pass.

I'd remove the floaters completely and affected leaf litter areas and wait if it starts anywhere else. Maybe use a UVC sterilizer in the filter chain. Best you can do. If nothing comes back for a while replace the floaters with new ones (bought/traded, not from another of your own tanks)

Glutaraldehyde (that liquid CO2), is not an option against cyanos, it's an algicide, but these things are bacteria.

 

[Mazan]

Pass.

I'd remove the floaters completely and affected leaf litter areas and wait if it starts anywhere else. Maybe use a UVC sterilizer in the filter chain. Best you can do. If nothing comes back for a while replace the floaters with new ones (bought/traded, not from another of your own tanks)

Glutaraldehyde (that liquid CO2), is not an option against cyanos, it's an algicide, but these things are bacteria.

This is what I have done, except I only removed the floaters that were affected (they weren’t all affected)), and removed all the leaf litter. The floaters quickly grew back and so far it hasn’t returned. Fingers crossed it won’t when I add more leaves.,,

 

[anewbie]

Pass.

I'd remove the floaters completely and affected leaf litter areas and wait if it starts anywhere else. Maybe use a UVC sterilizer in the filter chain. Best you can do. If nothing comes back for a while replace the floaters with new ones (bought/traded, not from another of your own tanks)

Glutaraldehyde (that liquid CO2), is not an option against cyanos, it's an algicide, but these things are bacteria.

Where did Glutaraldehyde come from - i havent' seen it mentioned anywhere in this thread. The presumption is chemiclean has a derivative of erythromycin though the company hasn't stated such.

 

[Mazan]

Where did Glutaraldehyde come from - i havent' seen it mentioned anywhere in this thread. The presumption is chemiclean has a derivative of erythromycin though the company hasn't stated such.

Glutaraldehyde is what the OP is using, “liquid carbon”.

 

[anewbie]

Glutaraldehyde is what the OP is using, “liquid carbon”.

Oh - yea that stuff is bad for everything.

 

[Mike Wise]

The presumption is chemiclean has a derivative of erythromycin though the company hasn't stated such.

Interesting. Cyanobacteria are gram-negative organisms. Erythromycin is predominantly used for gram-positive bacterial problems, although is is effective against some gram-negative bacteria. From what I've read it is not especially effective against cyanobacteria. I would think that a gram-negative antibiotic like tetracycline would be more effective. Of course cyanobacteria will reappear if the cause of the outbreak is not taken care of. In my cases I just siphon out what I can and do more frequent water changes.

 

[anewbie]

Interesting. Cyanobacteria are gram-negative organisms. Erythromycin is predominantly used for gram-positive bacterial problems, although is is effective against some gram-negative bacteria. From what I've read it is not especially effective against cyanobacteria. I would think that a gram-negative antibiotic like tetracycline would be more effective. Of course cyanobacteria will reappear if the cause of the outbreak is not taken care of. In my cases I just siphon out what I can and do more frequent water changes.

I'm really not sure - that is what people claim but as i noted the company treats the formulae as proprietary; of course a lab could do an analysis i suppose. However i've used it in multiple aquariums with great success. It takes a week to ten days to see the effectiveness (don't expect to put it in and come in the next morning and find the cyanobacteria gone) and as i've noted it hasn't return in all but 2 cases and those 2 cases a 2nd treatment resolved the issue.

You noted that cyanobacteria will return unless the cause is treated cyanobacteria will reappear but that begs the question what causes cyanobacteria to appear and perhaps (this is a question not a statement) could the chemical be used to attack the cause and not the cyanobacteria itself ?

As i noted there was really only one unique case where i could identify a cause and that aquarium had some unique properties (all accidental). It had a very large fish load but the nitrate always stayed 0 - for 6 months i did not do a water change (it was on the floor and eventually i purchased a pump to do water changes); but i could never detect nitrate. I eventually purchased a test kit that could measure 0.1 to 5 more precisely and the nitrate did show up as 1-2 range despite the fish load and my other aquariums having much higher nitrate levels with less fish load. This led me to come to the conclusion that the bacteria was eating the nitrate but wasn't producing the rotten egg gas but rather the more harmless ?nitrogen? (which was producing a very small amount of cyanobacteria in a localized area). I wish i could reproduce it more precisely as i usually get the death gas that kills all the plants et all instead.

Anyway take what i said not as fact but observation with a few vague assumptions (that might be incorrect).

 

[Mazan]

I have tried to read a lot about what causes Cyanobacteria outbreaks, but it seems no one is really sure, it does seem to occur when nitrate is very low, or perhaps when the phosphate to nitrate ratio is high. It is supposed to be worse where there is no water flow, too much light and maybe too much organic material present. Which is why I removed the leaves, also as it was impossible to siphon off the Cyanobacteria from them or just remove the affected ones. The first time I experience an outbreak was several years ago and it happened when I was raising a lot of baby cichlids that were growing fast, so the tank was quite heavily stocked and I was feeding a lot, but doing frequent water changes as well. And nitrates were still very low. That time as well as removing as much as I could manually, I added a few large almond leaves, and the Cyanobacteria miraculously cleared up. Maybe a coincidence as this did not work the next time it happened.

 

[MacZ]

In a german language forum we just had a biologist answer to a similar topic. He said you have to poison the bacteria, either by quick onset extreme oxidation or reduction. Both is usually not an option because all other life in the tank will not withstand this.
Alternatively he stressed the only definitive cures are competition by higher plants (or actual algae), high frequency and high volume waterchanges and dark treatment for a few days.

All else is depending on circumstances.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Alternatively he stressed the only definitive cures are competition by higher plants (or actual algae), high frequency and high volume waterchanges and dark treatment for a few days.

I agree with all of this except to be careful about what is meant by "competition." It's not competition for nutrients. Algae and bacteria can survive on almost nothing compared to plants, so you can't simultaneously starve them out and expect to grow plants.

However, high light relative to nutrients stresses the plants, which in turn creates opportunity for algae and bacteria. Healthier plants generally means less algae and bacteria, so it is "competition" in that sense. Paradoxically, you want to increase nutrients relative to the amount of light. To do both, 3-day blackout + added nitrogen.

some 'liquid CO2" helps against if i spray on it with a syringe) and in the floating plants.

Spot treating with an oxidizing or reducing agent is effective. Glutaraldehyde is a reducing agent. Hydrogen peroxide is effective as an oxidizing agent, and much safer (and cheaper) than glutaraldehyde. But I agree with those who say to just remove the things covered in cyanobacteria, whenever possible.

Cheers

 

[Stijn1191]

I do remove it manually but it keeps coming back, even though the "liquid CO2" does make it a lot harder for the algae to come back.
I prefer to not add nutrients to keep the ppm as low as possible and so far the plants are handeling that fine (there isnt a lot of plant mass though, because I'm going for a biotope look).

 

[Ben Rhau]

I do remove it manually but it keeps coming back, even though the "liquid CO2" does make it a lot harder for the algae to come back.

That’s because the conditions are still ideal for it to continue growing.

I prefer to not add nutrients to keep the ppm as low as possible and so far the plants are handeling that fine (there isnt a lot of plant mass though, because I'm going for a biotope look).

You could choose to dose nutrients minimally so that the plants would always deplete them. I understand you don’t want to do that, in which case your only other option is to black out for a few days and then significantly reduce the intensity and duration of light post blackout.

Cheers

 

[anewbie]

Fyi there is a product called ultralife blue-green slime remover (which i think is similar chemically to chemiclean) sold in europe.

I've not used it.

 

[Mazan]

Fyi there is a product called ultralife blue-green slime remover (which i think is similar chemically to chemiclean) sold in europe.

I've not used it.

I did use it once and it works with no apparent ill effects, I can’t get it here though.

 

[anewbie]

I did use it once and it works with no apparent ill effects, I can’t get it here though.

Yea i did more reading ... (and i realize this doesn't apply to you but in Germany they are both banned). You know the idea that you ahve to hire a vet to give your fishes basic treatment stinks. Oh well maybe there is some good in it i don't see.