Black worms

[Rhonie]

What do you think of feeding black worms, are you having any problems with them. Do you think they cause problems with your fish . I have had some of my older fish bellies swell up and die , do you think this may be the cause?

 

[Mike Wise]

Any organism collected/produced in outdoor aquatic environments that might also have fish in it might carry fish diseases/paracites. This is particularly true of tubifex and related worms (like black worms) which need septic environments to live. Because of this it is much more important that the worms are well cleaned and healthy before feeding to your fish. Otherwise there is a greater chance of polluting the tank and/or introducing diseases. If you didn't thoroughly clean your black worms before feeding them, this might be your problem. It is for this reason that I do not use freshwater aquatic worms - or other wild freshwater organisms - as live food in my breeding tanks. That being said, worms are an excellent food suppliment for fish if used properly. They can lead to obesity if used too much. Personally, I use container bred Grindal worms and baby red earthworms instead of aquatic worms. Both are bred in controled environments.

 

[GLIDD]

earthworms

what are the red earthworms? are they a red varity of worms we find
in our back yards?

 

[Microman]

I quite agree with what Mike says Ref parasites and microbial pathogens (bacteria and viruses) being present in the gut or body tissue of freshwater aquatic worms and the sceptic conditions in which they inhabit in the wild does not make them ideal as a live food by any means.
Luckily though i have managed to get hold of a small batch of Black worms from somebody who brought them back from the US as they are not endemic in the UK and have found culturing them relatively easy in small aquaria with clean freshwater of high oxygen content and regular water changes. However prior to their introduction to the culture aquaria i purged the gut contents by soaking in a weak 1% stock solution of Potassium permanganate(10mls per Liter of water) for 30mins which im sure has helped to reduce the risk of disease but would not completely eliminate all of the parasites and pathogens that might be present in the gut or body tissue.
Home cultured worms would certainly be much safer to use than those collected from the polluted rivers and streams in which they thrive.
I feed these worms occassionally to my dwarfs and they certainly seem to thrive on them but i probably wouldnt risk them if i wasnt culturing them myself. Like Mike i would stick to both Grindal and whiteworm....
Mark...

 

[Mike Wise]

what are the red earthworms? are they a red varity of worms we find
in our back yards?

Yes, the same worms. I use the baby worms before they grow too large. Any that grow too large for my dwarf cichlids go into my backyard/compost heap.

 

[GLIDD]

earthworms

thanks,from what I understand they are easy to culture,I'll give them a try.

 

[Mike Wise]

thanks,from what I understand they are easy to culture,I'll give them a try.

Check some of the composting web sites. They describe indoor compost systems (= worm culturing) without the use of soil. I'm not fond of dirt, especially with grindal worms. That's why I use a non-soil medium when raising them. It takes a lot longer to get a culture producing, but once going they are much easier to use.

 

[Zack Wilson]

Even if the blackworms aren't carrying a fish specific pathogen, there is still potential for them to cause problems. I don't necessarily see it as a reason to swear off blackworms all together, but it's something to be cautious about. There are few foods that seem to condition my fish to spawn quickly and prolifically than blackworms. I've personally never had a problem I could blame on blackworms, but I'm very careful not to feed from an unhealthy culture. A healthy, clean batch of blackworms shouldn't cause your fish to get sick, but a deteriorating culture easily could. Blackworms, like most other worms, decay extremely quickly, and what better place to find bacteria thriving. If you feed from a culture that isn't 100% healthy you could easily pollute the aquarium and introduce a bacterial infestation that the fish might ingest.

 

[jose_vogel]

As live food I use brine shrimp nauplii, daphnia pullex, vinegar eels, whiteworms and microworms. All breeding by myself.

I`m looking for a starting portion of bloodworms from a laboratory to start breeding this worms.

 

[Chromedome]

Culturing Bloodworms is a bit tricky. They are the larvae of a midge, a tiny fly like creature. You would have to find a way to culture these midges. And my experience is that these larvae are best collected in cold weather, unlike mosquito larvae, which thrive in the warm seasons.

Blackworms are cultured by California Live Foods. They do not live in septic conditions like Tubifex do, they originally were found in Trout ponds. However, they are also sold by a company in the Carolinas, and those are not as clean as the ones from CLF; I suspect that they are not cultured. And I agree that keeping the culture clean after you get it is of the utmost importance.

Finally, don't forget that feeding extremely high protein foods like Blackworms too often can also lead to internal problems without them being infested. I have seen people who depend too heavily on one food source, and they are usually the ones losing fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

They [blackworms] do not live in septic conditions like Tubifex do ...

I must disagree. Aquatic worms, like blackworms, need septic conditions in order to feed. Without it they starve. Septic does not necessarily mean filthy and disease ridden. Septic only indicates a high biologic load. If the septic environment for aquatic worms contains fish, or water that has a source with fish in it, then there is a much better chance that the environment contains fish pathogens. Terrestrial cultured organisms will certainly have many fewer fish pathogens than aquatic cultured organisms.

 

[Chromedome]

Septic does not necessarily mean filthy and disease ridden.

Actually, that is precisely what septic means. Online Dictionary:

Adjective: septic septik
Containing or resulting from disease-causing organisms
"a septic sore throat"; "a septic environment"; "septic sewage"
- infected

Of or relating to or caused by putrefaction
"the septic action occurs at the bottom of the septic tank"

By your definition, the old Tubifex would be safer, because they grow in waters where fish can't live. But I would recommend extreme caution handling them, as they do carry human pathogens.

 

[Mike Wise]

From "A dictionary of ecology, evolution and systematics" (Cambridge University Press): septic Heavily polluted; used of a habitat or zone of fresh water rich in decomposing organic matter, high in carbon dioxide and very low in dissolved oxygen; cf. oligosaprobic.

Since we are discussing environments, I used "septic" as above. Note that there is no mention of toxicity or disease.

Actually, that is precisely what septic means. Online Dictionary:

Adjective: septic septik
Containing or resulting from disease-causing organisms
"a septic sore throat"; "a septic environment"; "septic sewage"
- infected

Of or relating to or caused by putrefaction
"the septic action occurs at the bottom of the septic tank"

By your definition, the old Tubifex would be safer, because they grow in waters where fish can't live. But I would recommend extreme caution handling them, as they do carry human pathogens.

 

[DH247]

Actually I am starting to find the topic of semantics very interesting. I am coming across many words that, from an engineering perspective, mean completely different things than the general use of the word. For example, the word strength. In engineering strength is defined as the ability of a material to resist deformation. Then there's stress and strain and far more! So it's interesting to see how we think of words and their meanings depending on our knowledge and experiences! And to top it off 2 references have been cited and both are correct! Just different contexts.....

 

[Apistomaster]

I ship in 50 lbs of California Black Worms a year and feed them to my Discus, Dwarf Cichlids, Corydoras and Hypancistrus Plecos without any problems I could attribute to them. The greater ease of breeding many difficult fish fed on Black Worms is a benefit that seems to outweigh the risks in my experience.

I really think the evidence that they are a safe food is pretty good. The California Worms are raised in clean running water and fed prepared foods.
I don't believe the risk is zero but I do think the risk is low. I know I have lost far more fish to all other causes combined. Never experienced losses associated with Black Worm use.
There really is a difference between true Tubifex worms and Black Worms.
Tubifex are denizens of polluted water courses and carry a greater risk of disease transmission. The distinction between the two worms has been blurred and the cons of Tubifex have been transferred to Black worms.

It boils down to personal assessment of any potential risk to benefits.