black spots on crenicichla compressiceps

[Remon]

Hiya all,

A while ago I obtained 4 crenicichla compressiceps, which have recently started to develop black spots on their bodies, see pictures below.

I have been reading here and there that this may be caused by a virus or bacteria, and is either contagious or not. My nannostomusses who have been in the tank earlier than the creni's are also developing the spots now. I had one older crenicichla in the same tank already before, who seems to be fine still.

Does anyone know if the spots pose any serious threat to my fishes' health? And is there any suitable cure? On earlier cases with skin conditions I got good results by adding a little salt to the water (a few grams per liter); has anyone tried this? I was thinking about just putting 1 nanno in a q-tank, add salt and see what happens.

Would like to hear what you think!

 

[Remon]

no-one??

 

[ste12000]

Hi Remon.

This black spot Parasite/Disease/pigmentation defect it something i am getting increasingly interested in. A friend of mine and UK Dwarf cichlid Expert Mark Breeze had the first fish i ever saw with the defect, wild Apistogramma barlowi, we have discussed it between ourselves and are both pretty sure that its not a parasite(it may be but im not convinced) BCA(British cichlid association) cichlidae Editor Andrew wood also has Barlowi with these black markings on the body and at the BCA convention i picked up 2 trios of wild A.barlowi that also show the black defect!! i am now glad to have my own material to work with and am looking forward to performing my own experiments, both in breeding and observation. I am seriously considering buying a decent microscope to perform some simple observations of scales and fin clips..I am also getting in touch with Dr Burgess to ask him if he knows what it is, i dont mind providing a couple of fish as samples for him to examine..
As far as we (Mark Breeze, Andrew Wood and myself) have noted, the black spot problem is so far only recognised in Peruvian species??
A.agassizi
A.barlowi
A.cacatuoides
Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis

Others may be effected but as these are the only fish i am aware of!! ..BUT If it is the same thing with your fish, it will be the first Brasilian species that i have seen with this problem??

This is my new A.barlowi, as you can see, whatever the problem is its quite severe...

 

[Remon]

Hi Ste,

Many thanks for your reply! Very interesting! The infection seems to have spread to another tank where a specimen of teleocichla (also from brasil)seems to be developing the spots as well.
I have not tried the salt yet, but I think I might very soon. How is your experience with the development of the disease? Do the animals cope with the infection well? I have read somewhere else that the spots dissappear again after time and that it's nothing serious. I'm having doubts though!

 

[ste12000]

I have not tried the salt yet, but I think I might very soon. How is your experience with the development of the disease? Do the animals cope with the infection well? I have read somewhere else that the spots dissappear again after time and that it's nothing serious. I'm having doubts though!

Salt has no place in a south American tank in my opinion..I personally would never use it..

As i said in the first thread, i have only just picked up the Barlowi with the black spots..I have seen other peoples fish but do not have any experience personally..I am looking forward to observing my fish and making as many notes as i can..

One thing i do agree with is that it is not dangerous, both of my friends here in the UK are breeding Barlowi with the black spots, both groups of fish are in perfect health..

 

[Remon]

A relatively short salt-cure is used quite regularly though, also for South American fish. Together with a highered temperature it has a very good desinfecting function. I've used it before on some SA fish with skin complaints (separate fish in q-tanks), with very good results. That is why I think it would be worth considering.
I will keep a close eye on any development and post pictures along the way if I spot anything unusual. I've never seen this before in any of my fish!

 

[ed seeley]

I've used it as a short-term treatment for tetras, SA catfish and cichlids before with no apparent ill-effects. I certainly don't think it should be a permanent part of the water for anything other than brackish or marine fish though. (Oh, except my Nothobranchius killies!!!! - they'll be laying eggs soon Ste :biggrin:!!!)

 

[Ruki]

As far as we (Mark Breeze, Andrew Wood and myself) have noted, the black spot problem is so far only recognised in Peruvian species??
A.agassizi
A.barlowi
A.cacatuoides
Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis

Others may be effected but as these are the only fish i am aware of!! ..BUT If it is the same thing with your fish, it will be the first Brasilian species that i have seen with this problem??

Few words from me.
I have two males of A. gibbiceps(probably Czech breed strain) with black blotches. They were infested from A. baenschi(some of them were F0 but F2 also had a black blotches). A. baenschi also infested my A. sp. "Pebas". My A. velifera which had a contact with A. gibbiceps are schowing few blotches. Also one of my A. sp. "Black-chin"(F0, no contact with infested fishes) female have one black blotch.
But I had Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis without any blotches.
I also hear about A. pertensis and A. iniridae( http://images42.fotosik.pl/54/646fa7836a4e1ac3.jpg http://images35.fotosik.pl/54/c6b8b91931280018.jpg ) with black blotches. Somewhere in the Internet I saw photo of "black blotched" male of A. bitaeniata( http://www.aquariumfarm.com/phpBB2/files/rw_12_207.jpg ).

I tried to cure it with metronidasole, but it wasn't successful.

P.S.
And two interesting cases with "deadly dark blotches".
1. My friend has a female of A. gibbiceps with unknown disease. One of symptoms were dark blotches which was multiplying and enlarging.
Here topic about this case(in polish)- http://www.apisto.pl/fa/viewtopic.php?t=5936
2. In my case dark blotches were one of symptoms of deadly disease which has killed my A. baenschi(fishes which passed away first were fishes the most "black blotched") and A. sp. "Pebas"

 

[jose_vogel]

I had (and have) this disease lot of times.

The first time I saw it was almost 4 years ago and the blotches were on a recently wildcaught male A. bitaeniata. Because I didn´t know anything about that disease, I mantain him on quarantine for about 3 months. In those 3 months the disease spreaded to the 5 Apistos that were in that tank. I didn´t get those fishes out of quarantine and died almost 1 year after that.

The disease I saw attends with the black blotches growing in size and number, then the fish got thinner and thinner (as he had internal parasites), then became letargic and then died.

I always saw that blotches on wildcaught fishes (bitaeniata, agassizii, nijssenii and cf. eunotus). Someone told me he saw the same on wildcaught borelli and trifasciata from Argentina (but I can´t certified that).

One year after that (3 years ago) and after seeing almost 10 fishes dying with that blotches, one member of this forum ("blueblue" from Hong Kong) told that he had a fish with that blotches and we began to "talk" through de personal messages.

This is the advice he gave me:

For the black spot disease, the method that i tried
which could help a bit is:

1. First, isolate the black spot fish to prevent it
from spreading the disease.
2. Second, for the tank containing the black spot fish, try to have more frequent water change.
3. Third, feed the infected fish with food with mixed vitamin for fish added.
4. After trying the Steps 1 - 3 above, if you see the black spots reduce in number, then you could continue (and congratulations). Otherwise, you may need to try other methods, such as the use of some external parasites medicine as some may suggest (but i never succeed in the later case...).


After that, I had something like 5 fishes with the black blotches and I could "cure" all of them improving the food and making water changes of 50% weekly during 3 or 4 months. The blotches began to disminish in number and size and the fish continued with his/her normal life and bred.

So, if you wish, you can try it.


PS: of course, no Na on my tanks

 

[fishgeek]

maybe metacercaria would be worth a search ... not sure why that one pops in my head.... something to do within encysted tissue stages and if i am remebering correctly that situation required an intermediate host not normally found in an aquarium so not normally spread.... though i may be muddling things here

melanophores in the skin are neurologically controlled

for th black spots to be evident something is upseting the normal nervous control of the skin pigment cells
that maybe be physial trauma, infectious agents within the skin muscle, or maybe actual neurological disease(nutritional?degenerative?etc etc)

 

[Dzo]

I have noticed the black spots developing on my pair of Nannacaras... Has it been discovered or understood what makes them appear?

 

[jose_vogel]

I don´t think so.

 

[pangcv]

may i know any update for the cure? Currently I'm facing this problems as well

 

[Mike Wise]

As far as I know, no one knows anything about this syndrome. I had some wild A. cacatuoides with black blotches (not round spots). They lived and spawned for 2 years, so it didn't seem to affect them adversely - and never appeared on their offspring. I sometimes wonder if this is a symptom similar to the problems with 'Berlin Black' livebearers of the 1950s. It turned out that the black pigment on these fish was a melanoma (cancer) that shortened their life. In my experience the black blotches don't seem to do that, but the black was not as extensive. It also never infected other fish in my fish room. If the black blotches are a form a form of cance, and is contageous, then my guess is that it is spread by a virus, but one that is not overly virulent.

 

[gerald]

Hmmm.. the jump from Apisos to pikes and pencilfish seems like a new twist. I wonder if the ability to infect other genera and families is a recent aquarium-created mutation in the pathogen, or if it's been able to infect a wide range of different fishes all along but only reported in dwarf cichlids because we're such careful observers and note-takers.

I've seen black-spot disease from digenetic fluke metacercariae, and they tend to be discrete dots (at least at the center), not diffuse spreading blotches like this disease. PLus, the black-spot flukes I'm aware of need intermediate hosts (birds and snails) to spread. Mike's guess at a virus sounds like a good possibility, or maybe a sporozoan? Regarding health impacts, perhaps it's not a fatal disease but is a common secondary infection in fishes infected with some other slow-progressing internal disease ? Just guessing. Somehow I've avoided this one so far. Somebody oughta get specimens to the UFL fish disease lab.

 

[marny12]

any medicament for black spots help