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[ManeoMaster5150]

Hello from Utah!
I cant say I've ever been a member of this forum before but I used to frequent other big name sites about 13 years ago when I was more engaged in the hobby. a few months ago I pulled out all my old aquariums out of storage and started a little community tank for my niece and nephew. We had plastic plants to begin but that didn't even last 12 hours. back to grow lights, c02 systems and blowing money that I definitely shouldn't be spending.. god I love it.. My brother and I have 4 tanks setup now, and last month we found a young pair of A. caucatoides 'orange flash' on my local classifieds...
now we've witnessed a couple failed breeding attempts, but they're getting better. and hopefully we can at least make it to the wiggler stage this time and not get prematurely eaten.

I began searching for a nice pair of A. agassizii after the cockatoos came in, and apparently A. agassizii has these "super species" that somehow evaded my attention in my days before? At first I thought this was new knowledge but I guess they were discovered quite some time ago. I initially stumbled upon a picture of A. agassizii 'cuipeua' and now IM COMPLETLY IN LOVE. I cant believe how beautiful they are. so I've come here to join your cult, gain knowledge that I missed out on the last decade, make some new friends, and HOPEFULLY track down one of these lovely pairs!
Thanks for listening to my story. I'm just excited to be here.

 

[MacZ]

Welcome back to the hobby!

If you plan to go for the A. agassizii "cuipeua", I recommend starting a tank dedicated to them and tailor it to their needs. I don't recognize the name, @Tom C doesn't name them in his species list. But if it is a location variant, my recommendation stays to do a dedicated tank.

 

[anewbie]

Welcome back to the hobby!

If you plan to go for the A. agassizii "cuipeua", I recommend starting a tank dedicated to them and tailor it to their needs. I don't recognize the name, @Tom C doesn't name them in his species list. But if it is a location variant, my recommendation stays to do a dedicated tank.

This thread talks about them:

Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua Spawn

Found this last night. This is a pair of Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua and I have had them about three weeks.

apistogramma.com

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

Welcome back to the hobby!

If you plan to go for the A. agassizii "cuipeua", I recommend starting a tank dedicated to them and tailor it to their needs. I don't recognize the name, @Tom C doesn't name them in his species list. But if it is a location variant, my recommendation stays to do a dedicated tank.

Thanks Mac! yeah i have a dedicated 29 Gallon cycling as we speak! only plan to add some Hyphesobrycon Amandae later on to act as dithers!

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

This thread talks about them:

Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua Spawn

Found this last night. This is a pair of Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua and I have had them about three weeks.

apistogramma.com

thank you for posting!

 

[MacZ]

This thread talks about them:

Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua Spawn

Found this last night. This is a pair of Apistogramma agassizi Cuipeua and I have had them about three weeks.

apistogramma.com

Thanks!

 

[MacZ]

Thanks Mac! yeah i have a dedicated 29 Gallon cycling as we speak! only plan to add some Hyphesobrycon Amandae later on to act as dithers!

Care to share a picture? What water are you using? RO/Rainwater?

 

[anewbie]

I do want to point out that pictures of fishes can sometime be misleading (if that is how you pick the fish); as colours are frequently enhanced either via getting the fish into an aggressive pose or a bit of photoshop tweaking. Don't get me wrong there are some fantatsic looking fishes out there (tom has quite a few i'd love to see in person); but none of the fishes i have purchased ever look like the images the seller show; at least under normal daily behavior.

Of course looks isn't everything some of these fishes (imho) have more interesting beahvior than others but that comes down to individual fish keepers so i'll limit my comments at that.

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

Care to share a picture? What water are you using? RO/Rainwater?

Im not currently in a position to share the picture right this moment, but the tank is currently being cycled with tap water. I just got my RO unit the other day but have yet to install it. and unfortunately i live by refineries and our air quality here is disgusting so rainwater wont be an option for me. i tried it once and has a mass die off from it.
when the RO unit is up and running the plan is to mix 25% tap with it. i dont know where ill be able to get the pair i want from as of yet, but historically when shipped to my LFS they come in fairly alkaline water. (approx. 7.9 PH) so ill have to adjust weekly, or to match after i find a source.
so far my only experience with apistos have been caucatoides and double red agassizii in the past, but with gradual changes i was able to get both to spawn for me.
its worth noting that the 29 gallon is a hexagon tank, and is taller than wide. each wall is about 12 inches wide as they run and the distance from bottom to top is 24 inches deep. but its got a hard scape scaling the backwall of rooty driftwood, and some terra cotta caves underneath the root areas, with rockword running the middle in an effort to break line of sight. plants still not have been placed but its going to be mostly epiphytes with some cryptocoryne in and around the rockwork. light should be here today as well.

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

I do want to point out that pictures of fishes can sometime be misleading (if that is how you pick the fish); as colours are frequently enhanced either via getting the fish into an aggressive pose or a bit of photoshop tweaking. Don't get me wrong there are some fantatsic looking fishes out there (tom has quite a few i'd love to see in person); but none of the fishes i have purchased ever look like the images the seller show; at least under normal daily behavior.

Of course looks isn't everything some of these fishes (imho) have more interesting beahvior than others but that comes down to individual fish keepers so i'll limit my comments at that.

no, I agree with you. I've been disappointed in the past by misleading pictures. and its definitely already crossed my mind. so I have my fingers crossed that I can find someone reputable with a true pair that have some more than decent genes. as long as I can get some of that brilliant yellow/blue I think ill be happy.

 

[anewbie]

Im not currently in a position to share the picture right this moment, but the tank is currently being cycled with tap water. I just got my RO unit the other day but have yet to install it. and unfortunately i live by refineries and our air quality here is disgusting so rainwater wont be an option for me. i tried it once and has a mass die off from it.
when the RO unit is up and running the plan is to mix 25% tap with it. i dont know where ill be able to get the pair i want from as of yet, but historically when shipped to my LFS they come in fairly alkaline water. (approx. 7.9 PH) so ill have to adjust weekly, or to match after i find a source.
so far my only experience with apistos have been caucatoides and double red agassizii in the past, but with gradual changes i was able to get both to spawn for me.
its worth noting that the 29 gallon is a hexagon tank, and is taller than wide. each wall is about 12 inches wide as they run and the distance from bottom to top is 24 inches deep. but its got a hard scape scaling the backwall of rooty driftwood, and some terra cotta caves underneath the root areas, with rockword running the middle in an effort to break line of sight. plants still not have been placed but its going to be mostly epiphytes with some cryptocoryne in and around the rockwork. light should be here today as well.

Personally i'd invest in a 20 long or 29. They are inexpensive and your hex is going to be problematic if you end up with an aggressive female.

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

Personally i'd invest in a 20 long or 29. They are inexpensive and your hex is going to be problematic if you end up with an aggressive female.

yeah luckily i have a 20 long on hand! I'm anticipating it being problematic honestly. this trio of caucatoides we got reminded me how mean they can get.. and they were put in a custom 30 long. the second the two paired off to mate, they made sure to make the other females life a total nightmare. luckily we had a 55gal on hand with only a couple black neons and some pygmy corys, that we were able to make her new home. in fact here it is.

So ill have this other 20 ready to go.
What do you think about the method of introducing the female first so she can get comfortable before dropping in the male? Something I've been reading about that seems to be commonplace around here, but I have never tried before.
To reiterate, this is all assuming I can even score what I'm looking for.. ill definitely keep posting updates and keep everyone in the loop though, with whatever happens.

 

[anewbie]

I see little value; they are not pair forming. Both the male and female will want their own space (territory). Letting the female pick one first doesn't seem any better than letting the male pick one first.
-
With the cockatoo they aren't pair forming either and the male should not have been that aggressive to the third female other than perhaps her lack of desire to breed. My experience with cockatoo have been rather negative in terms of aggression both to other species and themselves. I do think wild caught cockatoo can be spectacular; just don't keep dithers with them

 

[MacZ]

Im not currently in a position to share the picture right this moment, but the tank is currently being cycled with tap water. I just got my RO unit the other day but have yet to install it. and unfortunately i live by refineries and our air quality here is disgusting so rainwater wont be an option for me. i tried it once and has a mass die off from it.
when the RO unit is up and running the plan is to mix 25% tap with it. i dont know where ill be able to get the pair i want from as of yet, but historically when shipped to my LFS they come in fairly alkaline water. (approx. 7.9 PH) so ill have to adjust weekly, or to match after i find a source.

Ok, so rainwater is out. But you can keep dwarf cichlids in pure RO, no remineralizing necessary. In my opinion and many others here it is beneficial to keep them in as soft water as possible. Low conductivity helps keeping bacteria at bay to which softwater fish react most sensitive. Soft water prolongs the life of an average Apistogramma at least to double the expected lifespan it has in a standard community tank. Except there are parasites and other stress factors involved.
Means also no rocks that make the water harder like Seiryu and the like... which you have in your tank.

What do you think about the method of introducing the female first so she can get comfortable before dropping in the male? Something I've been reading about that seems to be commonplace around here, but I have never tried before.

Commonplace in your area maybe. I have rarely heard of that. Important are structures that block the lines of sight. They have to meet these parameters: Ideally from glass to glass, 10-15cm above the ground and the fish should not be able to look through underneath or around it. A dominant fish will always try to claim the whole area it can overlook.

I agree also a long tank is advised. Dwarf cichlids are more or less bottom dwellers and territorial, so this is important.

Otherwise always recommendable: inert fine sand substrate, leaf litter, lots of surface plants for cover.

 

[Mike Wise]

I don't recognize the name, @Tom C doesn't name them in his species list. But if it is a location variant, my recommendation stays to do a dedicated tank.

The "triumvirate" compiling the Apisto Species List are in discussion about this fish right now. We are debating whether or not to list it as a separate form or a population of A. cf. agassizii (Netz) Alenquer. More to come on the List, I'm sure.

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

Ok, so rainwater is out. But you can keep dwarf cichlids in pure RO, no remineralizing necessary. In my opinion and many others here it is beneficial to keep them in as soft water as possible. Low conductivity helps keeping bacteria at bay to which softwater fish react most sensitive. Soft water prolongs the life of an average Apistogramma at least to double the expected lifespan it has in a standard community tank. Except there are parasites and other stress factors involved.
Means also no rocks that make the water harder like Seiryu and the like... which you have in your tank.


Commonplace in your area maybe. I have rarely heard of that. Important are structures that block the lines of sight. They have to meet these parameters: Ideally from glass to glass, 10-15cm above the ground and the fish should not be able to look through underneath or around it. A dominant fish will always try to claim the whole area it can overlook.

I agree also a long tank is advised. Dwarf cichlids are more or less bottom dwellers and territorial, so this is important.

Otherwise always recommendable: inert fine sand substrate, leaf litter, lots of surface plants for cover.

So to the complete use of RO instead of remineralizing, I’ll lose all the beneficial filter bacteria and have to deal with disease more? Does that mean there are some chemicals you’d recommend I have on hand to treat the more common problems? Also what are the exact water parameters you recommend I have? Should I try to keep the ph from dropping past a certain point?
Also thanks for all your input!

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

The "triumvirate" compiling the Apisto Species List are in discussion about this fish right now. We are debating whether or not to list it as a separate form or a population of A. cf. agassizii (Netz) Alenquer. More to come on the List, I'm su

The "triumvirate" compiling the Apisto Species List are in discussion about this fish right now. We are debating whether or not to list it as a separate form or a population of A. cf. agassizii (Netz) Alenquer. More to come on the List, I'm sure.

And how does one stay on top of this information? I’ve ran into this issue actually calling shops and breeders all over this side of the states already.
Also had to google “triumvirate” and I appreciate getting to add it to my mental thesaurus.

 

[MacZ]

So to the complete use of RO instead of remineralizing,
I’ll lose all the beneficial filter bacteria

Only if you rely on bottled ones. There are beneficial microorganisms in all kinds of water parameters. Just different ones. There are strains of nitrifying bacteria and archaea that have no problem with zero hardness and pH under 6. Otherwise my tank and many of the tanks the people here on the forum have, would not work for years.

and have to deal with disease more?

You got me wrong: The opposite. Soft water is beneficial as the harmful bacteria are kept to an absolute minimum.

Does that mean there are some chemicals you’d recommend I have on hand to treat the more common problems?

NONE. I work with preventive measures. Soft water, lots of humic substances (aka tannins) and high quality food. The only thing you might ever need, depending on the country you live in, is a dechlorinator. That's it.

Also what are the exact water parameters you recommend I have?

KH below detection with hobbyist test kits. GH likewise.
Optional, but will come with the aforementioned automatically: pH around 5.5 to 6. Conductivity around 50µS/cm. TDS accordingly ca. 25mg/liter.
For comparison: In the wild most Apistogramma live in similar conditions, with conductivity even lower than 10µS/cm. And true blackwater species additionally dwell in pH between 4.5 and 5.

Should I try to keep the ph from dropping past a certain point?

Don't have to. It won't just drop. The pH crash is a myth or rather a problem of neglectful and uninformed fishkeepers. It takes a grossly overstocked tank, overfeeding, relatively soft sourcewater, no live plants and neglect of waterchanges for at least a year or so. Then nitrates accumulate, which are dissolved in water as nitric acid. Nitric acid builds up, reducing KH to zero, boom. pH crash.
In a softwater environment with low stocking density, responsible feeding, fast growing live plants to reduce nitrates, regular water changes and sourcewater, that already is basically pure H2O, this cannot happen. With only leaf litter and alder cones it took me months to get pH firmly down to 6, and even longer below 6 purposefully.

Also thanks for all your input!

My pleasure.

And how does one stay on top of this information? I’ve ran into this issue actually calling shops and breeders all over this side of the states already.

Welcome to Toms Homepage

This website where the triumvirate Mike Wise, Tom Christoffersen and Frank Hättich (all present here on the forum) keep the extensive species list up to date.

Otherwise keep in mind: Breeders of domesic breeds can name their colour strains whatever they want. At least here, nobody cares for that. Many find it irritating and it's just a mess. So here you will most often here "domestic cacatuoides/agassizii/whatever".
But also tradenames for natural species... also a mess. We have many species that have no scientific name, yet. Until then the names can vary because wholesalers and retailers are obviously not all fish geeks and have store clerks and apprentices do the listings, they go with the names the importers give them and often would not know what names belongs to what fish. As many catch locations have portuguese or spanish names the locations are often written by what they hear and guess they might be written. The result: Typos, miss-identifications, completely guessed names.

 

[Mike Wise]

And how does one stay on top of this information? I’ve ran into this issue actually calling shops and breeders all over this side of the states already.
Also had to google “triumvirate” and I appreciate getting to add it to my mental thesaurus.

What can I say except it isn't easy. We do have contacts all over the world and with most collector/exporters, too. There seems to be at least 1 new apisto presented to us each month. Then research begins: diagnostic physical features, distribution (often kept confidential), and other factors.

FYI, TomC, Frank Hättich and I (the Triumvirate) have (arbitrarily in some people's opinon) decided that "A. agassizii Cuipeua is - for now - a population of A. sp. affin. agassizii (Alenquer). This, of course, could change especially if/when genetic testing occurs.

 

[ManeoMaster5150]

Only if you rely on bottled ones. There are beneficial microorganisms in all kinds of water parameters. Just different ones. There are strains of nitrifying bacteria and archaea that have no problem with zero hardness and pH under 6. Otherwise my tank and many of the tanks the people here on the forum have, would not work for years.

You got me wrong: The opposite. Soft water is beneficial as the harmful bacteria are kept to an absolute minimum.

NONE. I work with preventive measures. Soft water, lots of humic substances (aka tannins) and high quality food. The only thing you might ever need, depending on the country you live in, is a dechlorinator. That's it.

KH below detection with hobbyist test kits. GH likewise.
Optional, but will come with the aforementioned automatically: pH around 5.5 to 6. Conductivity around 50µS/cm. TDS accordingly ca. 25mg/liter.
For comparison: In the wild most Apistogramma live in similar conditions, with conductivity even lower than 10µS/cm. And true blackwater species additionally dwell in pH between 4.5 and 5.

Don't have to. It won't just drop. The pH crash is a myth or rather a problem of neglectful and uninformed fishkeepers. It takes a grossly overstocked tank, overfeeding, relatively soft sourcewater, no live plants and neglect of waterchanges for at least a year or so. Then nitrates accumulate, which are dissolved in water as nitric acid. Nitric acid builds up, reducing KH to zero, boom. pH crash.
In a softwater environment with low stocking density, responsible feeding, fast growing live plants to reduce nitrates, regular water changes and sourcewater, that already is basically pure H2O, this cannot happen. With only leaf litter and alder cones it took me months to get pH firmly down to 6, and even longer below 6 purposefully.

My pleasure.

Welcome to Toms Homepage

This website where the triumvirate Mike Wise, Tom Christoffersen and Frank Hättich (all present here on the forum) keep the extensive species list up to date.

Otherwise keep in mind: Breeders of domesic breeds can name their colour strains whatever they want. At least here, nobody cares for that. Many find it irritating and it's just a mess. So here you will most often here "domestic cacatuoides/agassizii/whatever".
But also tradenames for natural species... also a mess. We have many species that have no scientific name, yet. Until then the names can vary because wholesalers and retailers are obviously not all fish geeks and have store clerks and apprentices do the listings, they go with the names the importers give them and often would not know what names belongs to what fish. As many catch locations have portuguese or spanish names the locations are often written by what they hear and guess they might be written. The result: Typos, miss-identifications, completely guessed names.

Wow Mac, I really appreciate how much info you put here for me. This has given me more to think about. I guess someone once told me beneficial bacteria couldn’t survive acidic conditions, I accepted it and never bothered to research it further.
I have spent some time on the search function trying to research conductivity and TDS though..

this is admittedly things I never paid attention too last time I dealt with the common type Agassizii, and breeding, I merely built a drip system running through a 5 gallon bucket of peat that would then drip into another bucket. and poof. It worked out...
However I would like to actually measure all these things this time and hopefully achieve a more perfect condition.
Can I achieve that low of conductivity with a basic RO unit instead of the RODI models? I don’t know if it means anything to you but the unit have is the “geekpure 3 stage aquarium” model. And it’s only RO.
Also can I ask what exactly you’re using to test your water when you say, the conductivity? I can’t seem to find a straight forward answer anywhere on here about that. Is this like the run of the mill electrical meter that you get from the depot, used to test voltage?