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Apistogrammoides

Discussion in 'Identification and Morphology' started by mummymonkey, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. mummymonkey

    mummymonkey Member 5 Year Member

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    I'm a little confused by the new Datz book's information on apistogrammoides.

    It shows the family tree and seems to indicate that, for example, Apistogramma hongsloi is more closely related to Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis than to some other Apistogrammas such as Apistogramma agassizii.

    In the detail given for Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis it states that the generic name will likely remain valid.

    I know the whole phylogeny is still very much a work in progress but these two seem to contradict each other.

    Am I missing/misunderstanding something?
  2. Peter Lovett1

    Peter Lovett1 New Member 5 Year Member

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    Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis is pretty much an Apistogramma with more anal spines than it should have other than that they are pretty similar. The way they spawn is the same as apistos with the female going yellow.

    My understanding of specie and genus has less to do with actual genetic drift and more to do with visual aspects of the fish.

    With the new DNA research being carried out. The genetic relationships of species is become more well understood.

    So just because a fish is in Apistogrammoides does not mean that it can be more closely related to an Apistogramma than some Apistogramma are to themselves.

    I would agree that hongslio is probably more closely related to Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis than to Apistogramma agassizii.

    I think the biggest problem is the over all size of the Apistogramma genus and the range that this genus has and I think that in the next twenty years this genus will get split. As horrible as that may be. The best way this could be done is too drop the Apistogramma totally and have lets say the complex first and the specie after.

    Agasszii agassizii
    Agasszii elizabethae

    Or would this be to confusing
  3. mummymonkey

    mummymonkey Member 5 Year Member

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    Actually, having thought about it, it makes sense if some of the current members of Apistogramma were to be moved into Apistogrammoides in the future.
  4. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    I think that in the next twenty years this genus will get split. As horrible as that may be. The best way this could be done is too drop the Apistogramma totally and have lets say the complex first and the specie after. Agasszii agassizii Agasszii elizabethae Or would this be to confusing The description for the genus Apistogramma & its genotype (type species of the genus), A. taeniata, are valid and will remain a genus in which the regani-lineage (regani-, macmasteri-, & alacrina-groups) will remain. There is no need to drop this name for at least part of the present genus. I agree, the other lineages will probably be placed in new genera. Like Apistogramma, Apistogrammoides is validly described and has a valid genotype, Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis. Even though Apistogrammoides is actually part of the regani-lineage, phylogenetically, it has physical features that separate it from Apistogramma. At the moment no Apistogramma species has more than 5 (usually only 3) anal fin spines & no Apistogrammoides has few than 8 anal fin spines. The only way I can see that Apistogrammoides will be placed in the genus Apistogramma is if we find species that have 6 - 8 anal fin spines. Actually, having thought about it, it makes sense if some of the current members of Apistogramma were to be moved into Apistogrammoides in the future. Since the genus Apistogramma was described first, if Apistogrammoides is moved anywhere it will be into the genus Apistogramma (regani-lineage). Peter is absolutely correct, "species and genus has less to do with actual genetic drift and more to do with visual aspects of the fish."
  5. Chris(wildcaught!)

    Chris(wildcaught!) New Member 5 Year Member

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    Now is better time than ever to ask about the counting of analfin spines. Which fin spines counts? The hard ones (which are the hard ones?), the serrated ones or something else? I tried to do the counting for some time now but I just can't figure out how it is supposed to be done.
  6. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    If you can find a text book on basic ichthyology it will define many of these terms. There are set definitions for "spine" & "ray". A spine is a fin bone that does not split into 2 or more tips. A ray is a fin bone that splits at the end. The spines on cichlids, form the 'hard' portion of the fin. The rays form the 'soft' part.