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Apistogramma Cacatoides Question

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Hello all, I am new to the forum and would like to ask a question.
I have a 20 gal tank with 5 Barbs Pentazona and 2 Corydoras Panda. Today I went to the LFS to buy some food for my fish and saw this beautiful Apistogrammas. So I asked the seller about the fish and asked him if 1 or 2 will be fine in my aquarium setting. He said that it is fine and a pair would be a nice addition, but only mentioned that the fish may get territorial if breeding so I have to make some covers, caves etc.
So I bought a male and a female fish and put them in the community tank (I think they are not a pair yet, because they are small). I have many plants, wood and rocks and also an artificial cave, which I thought they will go in. But sadly after an hour in the tank the male fish decided that he gonna occupy the 2 Panda Corys' spot (a hiding place between a plant, rock and a small wood). Now the Pandas are out in the open and I am feeling bad for them,because they are kinda shy.
I think I've made a big mistake buying the Apistogrammas, tho they are not aggressive towards the other fish.
My question is, is there a possibility for the 2 Corys and the male Apistogramma to live together (I will re-arange the decoration tomorrow) or this is a no-no situation?

If so, I think I will return the Apistogramma to the LFS (despite the fact I like them very much).
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
The only time Corydoras and Apistos do not match at all is when the Apistogramma a breeding and the tank is small. Only return the female. A single male is ok in that setting. Get 3 more Corydoras (only panda, they do better in groups) and a piece of driftwood that they can use as a cover. Best get 2-3 nice pieces. The Apistogramma will also only need a cave for breeding, so if you decide to return the female (and I suggest that because in a small tank like this it may end fatal for her. Just avoid the stress for yourself and the fish alltogether.) the male will not need a cave on his own.

The reasoning: Apistogramma are territorial and females not ready to breed are chased away. Problem: A tank is not a creek. You have a community tank, not a breeding tank, anyway.
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Thank you very much for the reply!
This morning the Corydoras are back in their original hideout and the male Apistogramma is roaming around the tank. I will buy 2-3 more indeed.
For now the female is fine. When they meet each other they hang out together for a while and after that she goes away. He does chase her a bit, but not aggressively or fast. Today I will put 1-2 more decorations so she can go hide inside. I have a prepared tank to move her in if something happens.
Is there any chance that things may be ok? Or sooner or later there will be aggression towards her? I just fall in love with those 2 guys and also all the other fish are more relaxed around them now, compared to yesterday.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Or sooner or later there will be aggression towards her?
Pretty much to be expected. Right now you only see the first few days. Territories haven't been claimed yet. And caves are not what they need to hide, the lines of sight have to be broken. Otherwise the fish can't evade each other. This in turn is bad for the Corydoras which prefer open areas. The smaller a tank the harder it gets to make all species comfortable.

Here's a schematic. The 10-15cm above the substrate have to be completely sight-blocked, otherwise the male will follow her relentlessly at one point. A bigger tank (80-100cm long) would make this less of a problem, but your's is simply too small.
structure dwarf cichlids.jpg
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Again, thanks for the replay!
So the only option is either to return the female to the shop or put her in a different tank. I think I will choose the second option! I had an intuition that this purchase would be a potential trouble for the community tank, but my impulse prevail :D
Thank you for your advice!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
You're welcome. So if you have a second tank, keep them separate unless you want to breed and in that case better setup a dedicated tank for this.

Care to post pictures of both tanks?
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Sure, but the second tank is only about 5g and needs cycling, it wasn't supposed to be an active one.
Just filled it yesterday and I have to wait a bit before putting her in (despite I am dosing Sera Bio Nitrivec it still needs time). IF I gona put her in it would be temporary. I am about to get a 10g tank, because I don't have any more room for a bigger one. Anyway here are the pics from my main tank.
I am going to remove the artificial thingy with the holes on the 1st picture and also the big rock on the 2nd and will put some coco nuts or cave. It seems they do not like the one with the wholes.
I don't know if you can see on the 2nd pic, but there is a lot of space between the plants and the back side of the tank so the fish can hide there.
Excuse the bad quality pic!
 

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anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
Just an FYI: Cockatoo do not pair. The male establishes a territory; he will breed with any female in that territory that is ready to breed; and chase any female that is not ready to breed out of his territory. The level of aggression is somewhat fish dependent. I did not find my male overly aggressive to the female - not nearly as bad as hongsloi i had but i have read reports where he can be extremely aggressive.
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
A little update.
Sadly I am going to return the pair back to the shop tomorrow. After my last post things started to get worse. The male started chasing every single fish that he met while roaming and I suppose the whole tank is his "territory". Then I re-aranged the aquarium to some separate territories with hiding spots, woods and plants to break line of sight even more, but this doesn't help either. The Barbs got colurless, the Corrys are super scared.
Probably if my tank was bigger things could have worked out. Now I will have only Barbs and lot of Panda Corydoras!

Thank you both for the tips!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
The male started chasing every single fish that he met while roaming and I suppose the whole tank is his "territory".
As expected.
Then I re-aranged the aquarium to some separate territories with hiding spots, woods and plants to break line of sight even more, but this doesn't help either.
This concerns only the Apistogramma among themselves, not other fish.
The Barbs got colurless, the Corrys are super scared.
Honestly, rearranging the decorations will have had just as much impact on them as the behaviour of the Apistogramma.

Most cichlids are simply not community material and often even their "best behaviour" seems like high-octane aggression to people that haven't kept territorial fish before.

I hope you've learned this: Don't trust recommendations from a store clerk and especially don't buy fish without proper research before purchase.
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Yes, I won't take things for granted.
The pair is still at home. Things are better than yesterday. The barbs are lively today. One thing I noticed is that the male only chase fishes who are near him and on about his level of swimming (close to the gravel). So this would be a perfect fish for people who only have fish, which swim in the mid/upper layers of the tank. So now only my Corydoras (who are still babies and easily afraid probably) suffer a lot , because he is chasing them viciously. I will give the pair anyway.
My dream was to have a single/pair of Honey Gouramis for Centerpiece fish, but where I live they only sell the bigger species :( so the Apistogramma was the second option.

Have a nice day! :)
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Well.......another surprise. It seems that the female is pregnant, because she is in a cave in the middle of the tank and only shows her head out, while the male is chasing every 1 around.... I was about to bring them back in 2-3 hours....what now? Is it too late? How long will this proceed? Total disaster.....
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Jastia, I fear you will have the same aggression problem when fry appear, but this time from the female. Even the male will be subject to her wrath. I suggest that you send the apistos somewhere and, yes, let the eggs/fry die. It may seem hearless, but this is what often happens in Nature. It certainly will be best for the other members of your community tank.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Jastia, I fear you will have the same aggression problem when fry appear, but this time from the female. Even the male will be subject to her wrath. I suggest that you send the apistos somewhere and, yes, let the eggs/fry die. It may seem hearless, but this is what often happens in Nature. It certainly will be best for the other members of your community tank.
I agree fully.
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Well for now I removed the female in the small tank and left the male in the community tank. Tomorrow I will give them away.
I was watching videos about how the female will become yellow when in breeding mode, and ours is grey-black so I was sure they are not a couple. But it seems that she was "pregnant" already in the store.
All this gave me a lot of emotions for a new fishkeeper. A LOT. Now all the male's behavior is making sense.
At least now I am more than sure that our water parameters are fine ,haha.

Cheers to you!
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
She can't be pregnant in the store. The way it works is she lay eggs; then the male will fertilize them; then she will guard them and keep all fishes (including the male away). They never pair; there are species that do pair if you wnat a pair. Guppies and swordtails and be purchased 'pregnant' (well more technically) fertilized eggs; but you will never buy a cockatoo that is 'pregnant' or have fertilized eggs in the body....
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
She can't be pregnant in the store. The way it works is she lay eggs; then the male will fertilize them; then she will guard them and keep all fishes (including the male away). They never pair; there are species that do pair if you wnat a pair. Guppies and swordtails and be purchased 'pregnant' (well more technically) fertilized eggs; but you will never buy a cockatoo that is 'pregnant' or have fertilized eggs in the body....
Correct, although "gravid", = carrying unfertilized eggs, is indeed possible. ANYHOW, as the fish in this case is not bright yellow it obviously also isn't the case.
 

Jastia

New Member
Messages
11
Excuse my bad knowledge and bad terminology.
When we got her she was a bit fat, but I thought she may have been overfed. I guess what I wanted to say is that she had eggs in her body, not that she is pregnant.
So she laid the eggs indeed (saw them inside the cave when I removed her from the tank) but I am not sure if the male had fertilized them at that point. This decision made me very sad, but it was necessary to do so :(
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
Excuse my bad knowledge and bad terminology.
When we got her she was a bit fat, but I thought she may have been overfed. I guess what I wanted to say is that she had eggs in her body, not that she is pregnant.
So she laid the eggs indeed (saw them inside the cave when I removed her from the tank) but I am not sure if the male had fertilized them at that point. This decision made me very sad, but it was necessary to do so :(
I don't think turning yellow is a requirement; i had a cockatoo female that had frys with her that was not yellow. Also it is better to leave the female with the eggs and remove the male. Fertilization will happen at the time the eggs are laid; if the male did not fertilize them; he isn't going to go back there and fertilize them later.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I don't think turning yellow is a requirement; i had a cockatoo female that had frys with her that was not yellow.
The downside of colour breeds... I had a female (different species though) revert to normal colouration almost the moment she abandoned her spawn. Also a possibility.
Also it is better to leave the female with the eggs and remove the male. Fertilization will happen at the time the eggs are laid; if the male did not fertilize them; he isn't going to go back there and fertilize them later.
Yeah well, as breeding is not the goal here what does it matter?
 

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