Apistogramma Agassizii Gold .. Male or female need help

[GPistos]

Hello all,


I know this has been discussed and I too have a bit experience in breeding Apistogramma like Ap. Eunotus "RIO TAPICHE" WC in past.
But I did take break for some time due to professional and business' trips but I am back at it.

I just made a new tank and the region I am in didn't have any WC or nice pairs so I ordered online (due to winter season) and got one pair of Apistogramma Agassizii Gold.
Seller told me that it is indeed a pair and he is confident of it.
But I don't know if it is true, as per Band 1 Cichliden Atlas, I think it is both Male juv.

Normally I am able to tell male or female by just a look but generally it is WC or natural Apistogramma. This Gold type is man-made and based on these fishes behavior I am not sure really.

So I would appreciate if someone can give their opinion what they think of it.
#1 has white lines on back on the tail
#2 is complete Gold
#3 both in cave together.

BTW they fight a lot and sometime, full gold one(#2) is too aggressive towards white lines one (#3).

I am guessing one is 6 months old, other is around 4 months old. but I am not sure if they pair off so young,

thank you in advance.
#1

#2

#3

 

[MacZ]

Normally I am able to tell male or female by just a look but generally it is WC or natural Apistogramma. This Gold type is man-made and based on these fishes behavior I am not sure really.

This strain is indeed really hard to sex until relatively mature as the colour has been bred to be fairly consistent and unchanging in both sexes. (And making them kind of disabled when it comes to fish-to-fish communication. Meaning they have a tendency to sometimes be overly aggressive as they can't communicate well anymore.)

What size are they?
Once they surpass 5cm length it gets easy, just by size. If they're still under, you'll have to wait and watch.

 

[GPistos]

This strain is indeed really hard to sex until relatively mature as the colour has been bred to be fairly consistent and unchanging in both sexes. (And making them kind of disabled when it comes to fish-to-fish communication. Meaning they have a tendency to sometimes be overly aggressive as they can't communicate well anymore.)

What size are they?
Once they surpass 5cm length it gets easy, just by size. If they're still under, you'll have to wait and watch.

Thanks for your input. Really appreciate.
Yeah true about this color bred version, I was like "Have I forgotten all about Apistogramma?"
completely different behavior, I had big male A.baenschi and he was aggressive but not like these little guys.

But like you said, I think I need to grow a bit before I can really understand which is which.
They are under 5 cm, more like 4 cm and 4.5 cm, just measured them.

I never had these gold types and there is no literature on them so it is difficult.
And whatever shop writes, I just dont trust it, more or less it is selling versions.

 

[MacZ]

I never had these gold types and there is no literature on them so it is difficult.

I generally avoid all these strains but I observe them closely whereever I get the chance. What I usually see is ... well... not encouraging me to get them.

And whatever shop writes, I just dont trust it, more or less it is selling versions.

What I say myself. Any source that has an interest in selling you something is not giving you reliable info.

 

[GPistos]

I generally avoid all these strains but I observe them closely whereever I get the chance. What I usually see is ... well... not encouraging me to get them.

What I say myself. Any source that has an interest in selling you something is not giving you reliable info.

I agree, me too, I never go for these strains but this winter played troll on me, I didnt want to drive too far to pick up and online I found one which was OK I thought and as I am starting back again so why not just try.
Eventually I am gonna bring Apistogramma sp. Rotkeil or Mendezisp or Ladislao/Rio Cenepa, hopefully someone in Germany is breeding these.

 

[MacZ]

I know somebody near Frankfurtt who has A. mendezi, but I don't know if he's breeding them at the moment or just keeps them in a display right now.

 

[GPistos]

I know somebody near Frankfurtt who has A. mendezi, but I don't know if he's breeding them at the moment or just keeps them in a display right now.

would good to know.

Are you also member of DCG ? or for apistogramma there is different group?

 

[MacZ]

Not a member of any association or club. Not my cup of tea. My dad was in the DCG 25 years ago. But back then we were both still in the Rift Lake circuit.

 

[GPistos]

Not a member of any association or club. Not my cup of tea. My dad was in the DCG 25 years ago. But back then we were both still in the Rift Lake circuit.

Got it.
Apart from Apistogramma, do you breed some other species? like tetras or barbs ?

 

[MacZ]

I don't breed since I came back from a longer hiatus. But I've been heavily involved in other people's fishrooms, basically as a handler and assistant over the past years, but I neither have the money, space or ambition to do all of this in my own home. Been there for a decade, not interested in the extra work. I only keep a biotope display at home.

How about you? More of a breeder / collector or also sporting some displays?

 

[Mike Wise]

Most breeders sell your strain as Fire-red Agassizii. It definitely is not the Gold Agassizii form that I kept in the 1990s - A. sp. aff. agassizii BBCS (Rio Madeira) from Novo Olinda, Brazil (http://www.rva.jp/zukan/apisto/ap_agasizii_novaolinda.htm). But with domestic strains, the seller can label them any way that they want.

 

[GPistos]

I don't breed since I came back from a longer hiatus. But I've been heavily involved in other people's fishrooms, basically as a handler and assistant over the past years, but I neither have the money, space or ambition to do all of this in my own home. Been there for a decade, not interested in the extra work. I only keep a biotope display at home.

How about you? More of a breeder / collector or also sporting some displays?

I think helping and being involved in various fishrooms give you more expertise and knowledge than only one fishroom of own and it is true, own fishroom takes a lot of effort to run and helping hand is always welcomed.
I used have a fishroom with my friend, and ran around 48 aquariums breeding Discus, Apistogrammas, GBRs, Tetras, L46, L236, L134. We shared, (rented sorts) because both of us didnt have place to run so many aquariums at one place, but then 2020 happened and we closed it up.
Now I started back on my own 3 tanks, one main, one breeder and one grow out.

Going forward I want to focus to be more of a collector of rare and document breeding.
Hopefully I get a new place with cellar and I can spread out a more of collector tanks.

 

[GPistos]

Most breeders sell your strain as Fire-red Agassizii. It definitely is not the Gold Agassizii form that I kept in the 1990s - A. sp. aff. agassizii BBCS (Rio Madeira) from Novo Olinda, Brazil (http://www.rva.jp/zukan/apisto/ap_agasizii_novaolinda.htm). But with domestic strains, the seller can label them any way that they want.

Wow, the gold strain you had, looks so beautiful and elegant, mine one is just pretty but if I had choice to reconsider, I would have gone for Wild caught one.

I don't understand why we need to make more color morphos ones when we already have such nice natural sp.
these "fire reds" are real aggressive to one other, I have seen angry males in ap. but these are mean and also attacking N. marginatus at times.
My Ap. Eutonus WC was big male and aggressive but never attacked Dither or N. Marginatus.
Also distinguishing male and female was more first time so difficult for me and there is no literature on these.

 

[MacZ]

We shared, (rented sorts) because both of us didnt have place to run so many aquariums at one place, but then 2020 happened and we closed it up.

I had that with my band rehearsal room...

You definitely have some fish on your list I have little to no experience with, simply because they've always been out of my reach. And frankly... I find Discus and L-numbers quite boring but the other fish from their habitats highly interesting. I'm all dwarf cichlids, tetras and oddballs.

 

[GPistos]

I had that with my band rehearsal room...

You definitely have some fish on your list I have little to no experience with, simply because they've always been out of my reach. And frankly... I find Discus and L-numbers quite boring but the other fish from their habitats highly interesting. I'm all dwarf cichlids, tetras and oddballs.

you are musician too .. nice one... I guess friends with same interest helps a lot

Discus are boring if only one pair is kept, I had Discuss in Big 1000L tank .. all the babies were so interactive and made such nice bonds.. I never wanted to give them.. but bills built up.. I never bred for profit, just for hobby so I tried all which I can.. Its like playing basketball but with fishes

Oddball I never had.. I am really looking forward one day to own them.. How are they behavior compared to cichlids?

 

[MacZ]

I guess friends with same interest helps a lot

Absolutely.

Discus are boring if only one pair is kept, I had Discuss in Big 1000L tank .. all the babies were so interactive and made such nice bonds.. I never wanted to give them.. but bills built up.. I never bred for profit, just for hobby so I tried all which I can.. Its like playing basketball but with fishes

Things I had no chance to try. Back in the day we had a 2.5m Malawi tank in addition to our fishroom, but it all was family business. If any a group of wild type discus in a biotope tank would be interesting.

Oddball I never had.. I am really looking forward one day to own them.. How are they behavior compared to cichlids?

Oddballs are fish that are not as frequently kept and neither a species or a homogenous group. Puffers, knife-fish, butterfly fish, spiny eels, gobies, rare unusual catfish (e.g. electric ones)... all that stuff. You get everything from personable and outgoing to extremely reclusive and/or nocturnal depending on the species.

 

[GPistos]

Absolutely.


Things I had no chance to try. Back in the day we had a 2.5m Malawi tank in addition to our fishroom, but it all was family business. If any a group of wild type discus in a biotope tank would be interesting.


Oddballs are fish that are not as frequently kept and neither a species or a homogenous group. Puffers, knife-fish, butterfly fish, spiny eels, gobies, rare unusual catfish (e.g. electric ones)... all that stuff. You get everything from personable and outgoing to extremely reclusive and/or nocturnal depending on the species.

I have seen one biotope wild discus tank in Stuttgart area, he use to import wild discus and sell like crazy, I think he is now only breeding and selling as wholesaler, but he had huge 3000L biotope tank with red-spot wild discuss, whole tan colored with middle lighting, was really like walking to natural habitat.

I really want to own knifefish one day, wild caught ones.. they have great personality, but I dont have space for such big tank. hopefully one day.

I heard one guy in Northern Germany was expert in breeding oddball category fish, he did actually breed clown or some-type SA Knifefish. but the literature I read says it is too difficult and time consuming process.
Only to have experience one day, I want to see their natural behavior of breeding.

But yeah, you have unique taste in fish

 

[MacZ]

I have seen one biotope wild discus tank in Stuttgart area, he use to import wild discus and sell like crazy, I think he is now only breeding and selling as wholesaler, but he had huge 3000L biotope tank with red-spot wild discuss, whole tan colored with middle lighting, was really like walking to natural habitat.

I'm salivating.

I really want to own knifefish one day, wild caught ones.. they have great personality, but I dont have space for such big tank. hopefully one day.

There are some species that are smaller than the well-known black ghostknife (reaches about 30cm), that only reach 10-15cm. I'd have to look up the names, you barely see them outside Zoo settings, let alone at stores.

I heard one guy in Northern Germany was expert in breeding oddball category fish, he did actually breed clown or some-type SA Knifefish.

Clown knives I can imagine. They are very popular among monster fish keepers. If it's the same guy I heard of he breeds ghost knives and african knives. But I'm a bit out of that area at the moment. My info is from 2017 or so.

But yeah, you have unique taste in fish

When you grow up in a fishkeeper family... I actually fell for rather ubiquitous fish. Cichlids and Characins. My jam.

But you also have quite the taste.

 

[GPistos]

I'm salivating.


There are some species that are smaller than the well-known black ghostknife (reaches about 30cm), that only reach 10-15cm. I'd have to look up the names, you barely see them outside Zoo settings, let alone at stores.


Clown knives I can imagine. They are very popular among monster fish keepers. If it's the same guy I heard of he breeds ghost knives and african knives. But I'm a bit out of that area at the moment. My info is from 2017 or so.


When you grow up in a fishkeeper family... I actually fell for rather ubiquitous fish. Cichlids and Characins. My jam.

But you also have quite the taste.

I think he also does some ghost knives, not sure african knives but he did breed also rare puffer thats how he got known, it was around mid 2018 if I am right. I am not good with names, and also I took a break so some of my contacts are off at the moment.

Lucky you.. you grew in fishkeeping family, but in mine I am lone and they get confused seeing 5 + tanks in house and say you make house a zoo .

But you have a nice gig.

Hopefully we jam one day with some puffers and geophagus

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