Apisto survival rate

[Don cheech]

Question:
What’s the longest lifespan you personally have gotten out of your Apisto’s.
Have most of you had success with keeping them for many years.
I read somewhere that a study was done and only 8% survival rate at two years can this be possible?
I personally have had bad luck with keeping them and I’m hoping that my latest set up is going to work. If it doesn’t I’m going to throw in the towel and it’s upsetting because they are my most favorite Fish of all I’m no expert but not a beginner either.

 

[MacZ]

I read somewhere that a study was done and only 8% survival rate at two years can this be possible?

It is widely known fish in general lay dozens to thousands of eggs and only a handful survives into adulthood. I don't know whether said study was on wild or tank populations, so it might be more in captivity.
Then again considering how many fish are already on their last legs when sold in retail and how often fish come done sick after only a couple of months or short of a year after purchase by a home aquarist, it is possible the number also fits captive fish.
I'd estimate the average life expectancy for farmed, massproduced fish of a domestic strain at 1-2 years. Some species some more, some less.
Wild caught fish may be already quite old, have battled diseases and parasites, got away from predators, survived the stress of the catch and transport... some might drop dead soon after reaching their final destination, some may make it quite long. But going by what is usually reported and the fact that we can only safely estimate their time in captivity, not their full life time, I'd say 0.5 to 2 years is to be expected.
Now having probably the biggest chances of growing quite old, are tankbred generations parented by wild individuals or the first few generations of captive offspring, raised and kept under ideal conditions. I'd give these fish good chances of surpassing 3, maybe 4 years.

But generally I guess 2 years is the overall average for an Apistogramma. Not saying that it's impossible that any of them reach older ages, but likelihoods are always just approximations.

Use the search, we had this topic some time last year and Mike posted pictures of some senior Apistogramma specimens far beyond 3 years. As far as I remember he also considered them special and rare specimens.

 

[Don cheech]

It is widely known fish in general lay dozens to thousands of eggs and only a handful survives into adulthood. I don't know whether said study was on wild or tank populations, so it might be more in captivity.
Then again considering how many fish are already on their last legs when sold in retail and how often fish come done sick after only a couple of months or short of a year after purchase by a home aquarist, it is possible the number also fits captive fish.
I'd estimate the average life expectancy for farmed, massproduced fish of a domestic strain at 1-2 years. Some species some more, some less.
Wild caught fish may be already quite old, have battled diseases and parasites, got away from predators, survived the stress of the catch and transport... some might drop dead soon after reaching their final destination, some may make it quite long. But going by what is usually reported and the fact that we can only safely estimate their time in captivity, not their full life time, I'd say 0.5 to 2 years is to be expected.
Now having probably the biggest chances of growing quite old, are tankbred generations parented by wild individuals or the first few generations of captive offspring, raised and kept under ideal conditions. I'd give these fish good chances of surpassing 3, maybe 4 years.

But generally I guess 2 years is the overall average for an Apistogramma. Not saying that it's impossible that any of them reach older ages, but likelihoods are always just approximations.

Use the search, we had this topic some time last year and Mike posted pictures of some senior Apistogramma specimens far beyond 3 years. As far as I remember he also considered them special and rare specimens.

It’s tough because these online apistogramma care guides don’t tell you any of this you have to find out for yourself and it’s quite frustrating and costly for a newbie for apistogramma like myself. I have had great success for years with your general community fish, but these guys are not easy to keep alive. What kind of success and Failures have you had when you first started with Apistos if you don’t mind me asking.

 

[Don cheech]

It’s tough because these online apistogramma care guides don’t tell you any of this you have to find out for yourself and it’s quite frustrating and costly for a newbie for apistogramma like myself. I have had great success for years with your general community fish, but these guys are not easy to keep alive. What kind of success and Failures have you had when you first started with Apistos if you don’t mind me asking.

And thank you by the way, you seem to be the only one that tries to help me out here truthfully, I am a little disappointed not to get more replies and responses. I wonder sometimes if it’s me. ‍

 

[MacZ]

And thank you by the way, you seem to be the only one that tries to help me out here truthfully, I am a little disappointed not to get more replies and responses. I wonder sometimes if it’s me. ‍

Na, it's not you, but the active community here on the forum is quite small.

My experience is pretty much what you read above.

 

[martin_c]

Hi.
From a batch of A. diplotaenia that hatched little over 4 years ago i kept 5 of them and 4 still live and appear vivid and healthy.

I think i read once about Parosphromenus that due to living in extreme black water evolution made them grow slower but live longer than other species. Maybe that's applicable for some cichlids too?

 

[Mike Wise]

For me, I have had many apistos reach 5 years in age and one old guy that was hatched and lived for 6 years in my tank. I even had a 4 year old pair reproduce for me. In the wild these fish rarely live more than a year. In breeding operations where they are repeatedly bred without a period of rest most rarely survive past 2 years. By then the breeders consider them 'bred out' and replace them with younger fish.

 

[MacZ]

In breeding operations where they are repeatedly bred without a period of rest most rarely survive past 2 years. By then the breeders consider them 'bred out' and replace them with younger fish.

And this seems to connect with females burning out pretty quickly if left in a display tank with conditions well enough for constant breeding.

I think i read once about Parosphromenus that due to living in extreme black water evolution made them grow slower but live longer than other species. Maybe that's applicable for some cichlids too?

Considering Dicrossus tending to have an average life span close to that of Apistos, while being definitely all more softwater leaning... I don't know.

 

[anewbie]

My female nijjensi lived around 4 years and she only died because she got abused when i moved which made me really sad.

Having said that i've had more than a few suddenly die after 18 to 30 months due to 'bloat' or whatever - basically not sure. My a. pucallpaensis don't seem to live as long - they show old man syndrom after 2 1/2 to 3 years and then die (basically back begin to get bent and other signs of old age).

Domestic have lived less long - the nijjensi was an f1. My treatment of the fishes have improved the past year as i now used ro water with them exclusively so hopefully they will live longer.

 

[Don cheech]

Na, it's not you, but the active community here on the forum is quite small.

My experience is pretty much what you read above.

Well, I can always count on you. Thank you for all the help.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I typically buy subadults, so mine have lived 2 - 3 years. I separate breeding pairs so as not to burn out the females.

I've also kept Parosphromenus, and I do think they live longer. I don't think we can say whether it's due to conditions or just that it's a different genus.

 

[Don cheech]

I typically buy subadults, so mine have lived 2 - 3 years. I separate breeding pairs so as not to burn out the females.

I've also kept Parosphromenus, and I do think they live longer. I don't think we can say whether it's due to conditions or just that it's a different genus.

In the past I haven’t gotten more than 6 to 8 months, but that was on me but then I read this article about 8% making it to two years so I don’t know, now I have three tanks with the Apisto’s fairly new so far so good, I’m hoping I got it figured out this time

 

[Andrew H]

I’ve had a disappointing run as well, Don. My first apistos were LFS store bought as adults and line bred orange flash, ie they very well could have died of “old age” but my second pair were juvenile borellii pantanal (ie should be closer to WT) from a good source. The male made it 6 months, the female maybe 11. The typical exit is a withdrawal, stop eating, labored breathing and death follows. The pair did spawn prior to the male passing and I have a few surviving juveniles. Hoping for the best but probably not going to try another round if I can’t keep these juveniles healthy! They deserve better… though I have no idea what’s wrong given I spend a lot of effort keeping the tank in great shape per suggestions on this forum. My only hypothesis is that I have mycobacterium in the tank.

Meanwhile, my corys are bulletproof and evidently live for 10-20 years so I’m committed.

 

[MacZ]

My only hypothesis is that I have mycobacterium in the tank.

The typical exit is a withdrawal, stop eating, labored breathing and death follows.

The phenomenon you describe is very common, at least 80-90% of cases reported on forums of sick Apistos show this pattern. I know mycobacterium in cichlids also includes other symptoms (massive weight loss and discolourations) and takes weeks from the first symptoms until death while the dwarf cichlid sudden death phenomenon usually takes at most a week from start und end.
Also mycobacterium would affect other fish too, as it often breaks out even with low stress levels and optimal care.
Maybe it would be worth while to get fish that die of the syndrome autopsied and analyzed. But get that orchestrated.

 

[Don cheech]

I’ve had a disappointing run as well, Don. My first apistos were LFS store bought as adults and line bred orange flash, ie they very well could have died of “old age” but my second pair were juvenile borellii pantanal (ie should be closer to WT) from a good source. The male made it 6 months, the female maybe 11. The typical exit is a withdrawal, stop eating, labored breathing and death follows. The pair did spawn prior to the male passing and I have a few surviving juveniles. Hoping for the best but probably not going to try another round if I can’t keep these juveniles healthy! They deserve better… though I have no idea what’s wrong given I spend a lot of effort keeping the tank in great shape per suggestions on this forum. My only hypothesis is that I have mycobacterium in the tank.

Meanwhile, my corys are bulletproof and evidently live for 10-20 years so I’m committed.

Yeah, I have very similar circumstances. It’s just so frustrating when you put so much effort into it and you know you’re doing everything right and my water parameters are great and yet these Apisto’s don’t make it. I currently have an orange adult orange flash agasizzi in a 29 that seems like he’s holding up and I have a juvenile pair of Veijeta and a agasizzi fire red in a 20 gallon so far so good. I love these fish so much they are my favorite and I refuse to give up.

 

[Don cheech]

I’ve had a disappointing run as well, Don. My first apistos were LFS store bought as adults and line bred orange flash, ie they very well could have died of “old age” but my second pair were juvenile borellii pantanal (ie should be closer to WT) from a good source. The male made it 6 months, the female maybe 11. The typical exit is a withdrawal, stop eating, labored breathing and death follows. The pair did spawn prior to the male passing and I have a few surviving juveniles. Hoping for the best but probably not going to try another round if I can’t keep these juveniles healthy! They deserve better… though I have no idea what’s wrong given I spend a lot of effort keeping the tank in great shape per suggestions on this forum. My only hypothesis is that I have mycobacterium in the tank.

Meanwhile, my corys are bulletproof and evidently live for 10-20 years so I’m committed.

The Veijeta is in another 29 gallon correction there didn’t want you to think I had them both in the same tank

 

[Andrew H]

Also mycobacterium would affect other fish too, as it often breaks out even with low stress levels and optimal care.

Hi Mac, thanks for the thoughts. I think I will send a fish for autopsy next time if I can find someone who does this. It’s a pretty involved procedure - they have to culture the bacterium on agar and test for staining. For now I’m hoping that Diane Walstad is correct and running a UV 24/7 inline will help… the more common wisdom is to kill everything, sterilize the tanks, burn your house down and move to another country.

 

[MacZ]

the more common wisdom is to kill everything, sterilize the tanks, burn your house down and move to another country.

I'd only prescribe that for Yersinia pestis to be frank. Or for religious fanatics. Luckily breakouts of Mycobacterium marinum are quite rare here. I contracted the bovine version as a kid, gave me some good immunity against Tuberculosis.

I think I will send a fish for autopsy next time if I can find someone who does this. It’s a pretty involved procedure - they have to culture the bacterium on agar and test for staining.

I know. Sent in samples quite often back in the day.

For now I’m hoping that Diane Walstad is correct and running a UV 24/7 inline will help…

If the UV is strong enough it will work. Didn't even know she said anything about it, found it common knowledge. What Watt-number are you operating?

 

[Andrew H]

What Watt-number are you operating?

Well it’s the fluval unit, 3W, so I wonder if that’s sufficient. I do have a canister filter and good turnover so there should be continuous exposure.

 

[MacZ]

I'd probably drop the flowrate for longer exposure. (and now enough off topic )