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Apisto’s in a high tec tank - Newbie

KirstyF

New Member
Messages
4
Hi All

I’m considering keeping apisto’s in a high tech planted tank. (Co2 injection)

Never kept apisto’s before. Probably looking at borellii as I’ve read that they are not as aggressive as some and perhaps a good choice for beginners.

water is around 11-12 GH/KH
Ph 6.5 - 7.5.
Dimensions - 84” x 24” x 22”
Approx 700l
Fairly heavily planted but also has sand areas and open swimming space.

Will be a community tank with small fish. Currently ottocinculus, cardinal tetra and 3 Siamese Algae Eaters. Other stock being considered are Celestial Pearl Danio and Gold Ring Danio but not fully decided yet.

just wanted to say hi and maybe pick up on some opinions here as this is a specialist site.

so:
Would borellii be a good choice for this tank?
How many and which sex. ie 1m 2f perhaps?
Are there any other fish that would be compatible for the lower level, without crowding the Apisto’s out/causing conflict?
Can you point me to any good material to read up more on keeping these lovely fishes?

many thanks
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I'm generally not in favour of keeping apistos in such a scenario. But let's see... tank is quite big. Maybe...

Can you post a picture? Says more than a thousand words.

But there are some stocking problems.
Other stock being considered are Celestial Pearl Danio and Gold Ring Danio but not fully decided yet.
CPDs are similarly oriented in the water column as Apistogramma, might get chased.
Gold ring danios and zebra danios and the like might become a problem for any fish that live under them. Greedy eaters, might be necessary to targetfeed the lower levels.

Other bottomdwellers are out when you add Apistogramma.

About your choice of Apistos... Water parameters would work, but I think they are a bit too shy to really prosper in a tank like this. Maybe another clearwater species would work better.
 

KirstyF

New Member
Messages
4
Hi @MacZ

so just one or two issues, that’s a good start. Lol!

But hey, that’s the reason I came here.

images of tank below, bear in mind the tank is only 7 weeks old so there will be a good bit more growing going on over time. Fish will only be added slowly so no rush to get Apisto’s in and I had thought that it may be best to stock most other fish first so as not to agitate them?

DBE0525F-B15A-448B-A0D7-BE2BEBB55456.jpeg
98ACF213-EFF7-492A-947E-932B86C92067.jpeg
CB46ADF2-0601-41E3-9F94-BCF1E9CC2B71.jpeg
There is a fairly large area of flat soil with some stems behind the main piece of central wood that you can’t really see as well. Lights are off at the moment but can take some images tomorrow if that helps.

So… any Apisto’s (and tank mates) that you might recommend for this set-up?
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I'm generally not in favour of keeping apistos in such a scenario. But let's see... tank is quite big. Maybe...

Can you post a picture? Says more than a thousand words.

But there are some stocking problems.

CPDs are similarly oriented in the water column as Apistogramma, might get chased.
Gold ring danios and zebra danios and the like might become a problem for any fish that live under them. Greedy eaters, might be necessary to targetfeed the lower levels.

Other bottomdwellers are out when you add Apistogramma.

About your choice of Apistos... Water parameters would work, but I think they are a bit too shy to really prosper in a tank like this. Maybe another clearwater species would work better.
I have CPD with borelli and the CPD hang near the upper 1/3 and hte borelli near the bottom third; but borelli are pretty laid back to begin with; just have places where the female can nest (if you have a female); in my case there is a lot of drift wood and she nest in the back under the java fern beneath a piece of drift wood.
--
I don't have sae with my borelli but talk about an odd size match; the sae is like 10 or 15 times larger.

Borelli are a good choice as they are quite passive and do ok in hard water which you have. Just don't put anything in there that will be aggressive towards them.
-
I'm a fan of kubotai rasbora; they hang towards the upper 1/3 but unlike cardinals constantly swim. The only thing is that this is a very large tank and the borelli will likely be lost; the male will hang towards the front so you will see him but the females will almost certainly try to find a hidden spot in the back to nest (if you get females).
 
Last edited:

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
153
Location
Canada eh
Welcome to the site, and that's a beautiful tank you have there! In my opinion, you should be able to keep apistos in it because of how well-structured it is. This wouldn't be a breeding tank though, so any fry would be eaten, as cardinals and danios are effective fry predators. The apistos would also become territorial when breeding and could attack the CPDs or SAEs.


My suggestion would be to add solely male apistos, this way there is no breeding aggression and territories are smaller. Plus, Borellii males are much more colourful than females, even in breeding dress. In this tank you could likely keep multiple males, especially of borellii, maybe even up to 3. I'm not an expert on stocking multiple males of different species in the same tank, so possibly someone with a bit more experience could help you out better here.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I would 2nd the part about the tank being lovely. Bit of an odd size at 7 ft long; and even with that stool you need long arms to reach the bottom; but very nice tank. If you do get borelli I would not get other species of apisto simply because most will dominate the borelli in size and if there is conflict the borelli will suffer. I tried mixing a borelli male with a runt cockatoo and it did not end well. Borelli are lovely fish with a great personality but they are small so keep that in mind.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I don't have sae with my borelli but talk about an odd size match; the sae is like 10 or 15 times larger.
I almost forgot about these. Although, looking at the tank they are also kinda lost. But they only get to 3 times the size of a A. borellii at best, rather only double. Borellii grow to about 6cm, SAEs 10-15 tops. CAEs are the big ones.

My suggestion would be to add solely male apistos, this way there is no breeding aggression and territories are smaller. Plus, Borellii males are much more colourful than females, even in breeding dress. In this tank you could likely keep multiple males, especially of borellii, maybe even up to 3. I'm not an expert on stocking multiple males of different species in the same tank, so possibly someone with a bit more experience could help you out better here.
Agree, this setting is not one for adding females.

But in general... I think A. borellii get simply lost and dissipate in that tank. Probably 2-3 males of a bigger bolder species might be better. I'd recommend A. macmasteri, they can do with the water parameters. I would definitely advise against mixing different species.

Bit of an odd size at 7 ft long
In metric it's 215cm, which is a standard length in that size category, though not something you get ready from the shelf. 150 is the last you get without preorder, then it's 175, 215, 250, 300, unless you order special dimensions fitting your room.

The tank itself is nicely done, if it was the same style in half the size I'd say not apisto-friendly (the open "passways" and "islands" offer too much open space in smaller tanks and the lines of sight are unbroken.) but the big size and especially footprint make it a suitable tank.

A few zones of leaf litter might give it the final touch for Apistogramma approval. :)
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I almost forgot about these. Although, looking at the tank they are also kinda lost. But they only get to 3 times the size of a A. borellii at best, rather only double. Borellii grow to about 6cm, SAEs 10-15 tops. CAEs are the big ones.
Well we can disagree here; you are looking at raw length but not overall fish mass; the sae is 2 or 3 time wider than a borelli so in terms of total mass you have at least 3x2 or 6 times more massive. The borelli is a rather thin delicate looking fish - compared to cockatoo which is relative wider body as well as longer (if you want a larger apisto). Btw i do not recommend cockatoo - know nothing about macmasteri physically or personality first hand so won't comment on them.

Btw you could consider other dwarf cichlid; there is no reason to limit yourself to apistogramma. There is really nothing special about apistogramma generically compared to other dwarf cichlid and there are lovely passive dwarf cichild that are a bit larger (4 vs 3 or 2 inches).

In metric it's 215cm, which is a standard length in that size category, though not something you get ready from the shelf. 150 is the last you get without preorder, then it's 175, 215, 250, 300, unless you order special dimensions fitting your room.
In the us standard sizes seem to skip 7ft and 6ft or 8ft are more common.
 
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MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Well we can disagree here; you are looking at raw length but not overall fish mass; the sae is 2 or 3 time wider than a borelli so in terms of total mass you have at least 3x2 or 6 times more massive. The borelli is a rather thin delicate looking fish - compared to cockatoo which is relative wider body as well as longer (if you want a larger apisto).
That wasn't clear from your initial post I reacted to. When talking of "size" the usual factor understood commonly is length, not mass.

Btw i do not recommend cockatoo
Agree!

Btw you could consider other dwarf cichlid; there is no reason to limit yourself to apistogramma. There is really nothing special about apistogramma generically compared to other dwarf cichlid and there are lovely passive dwarf cichild that are a bit larger (4 vs 3 or 2 inches).
If the tank was much, MUCH darker, Cleithracara would be an option, but even in a sizeable group this tank is not suitable. Same for Dicrossus.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
That wasn't clear from your initial post I reacted to. When talking of "size" the usual factor understood commonly is length, not mass.


Agree!


If the tank was much, MUCH darker, Cleithracara would be an option, but even in a sizeable group this tank is not suitable. Same for Dicrossus.
Well doesn't help much to think of unsuitable dwarf cichlid; but rather consider some suitable dwarf cichlid such as Lateacara dorsiger....
 

KirstyF

New Member
Messages
4
Hi All

Thank you so much for all of your replies and lovely comments about the tank.

Lots to think about here.

The tank was a custom build, hence the odd size, and dimensions were chosen simply because I quite like the panoramic feel it gives. The 22” height (opposed to 24” ‘standard’) accentuates that somewhat, and also allows for slightly easier access than a 24” would, although yes, I’m still in up to my shoulders.
As I’m only 4’ 11” tall, the stool is absolutely essential.

I agree that the SAE’s are out of proportion to the rest of the tank inhabitants but I’ve kept them with small fishes before and found them to be fairly active but completely non-aggressive. They, of course, will also munch on the algae that no-one else will touch so can aid as a good natural control (whilst you fix whatever caused the issue in the first place) Whilst not guaranteed, this can help to avoid use of chemicals on the (hopefully rare) occasions when this raises its head.

In event of any serious conflict issues, I know that Sweet Knowle Aquatics are happy to take more mature SAE’s so I’ve the comfort of a back up plan, just in case.

Small fish in a large tank often means you need to look for them a little more but I spend alot of time tank gazing so I’m ok with that. That being said, it sounds like Macmasteri may be a better option if Borellii are perhaps a little too ‘shy’ and I’ll take a look at Lateacara dorsiger too.

My interest in these type of fish is primarily based on, not only how beautiful they are, but also on how much I’ve heard about their intriguing characters so I’m fairly flexible on type and, most importantly, want to make sure they would be happy in the environment I can provide.

On that basis, any further suggestions for any other suitable types of Apisto’s or other characterful dwarf cichlids, are very welcome. I think 3-4” is as large as I would want to go and note, I have Amano shrimp in the tank. They are obviously much larger than many shrimp and I understand that even smaller fish might decide they look like a snack if they have the mind to, but avoiding especially large mouths would be a good idea.

I can certainly add some areas of leaf litter to make them feel more at home.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
Hi All

Thank you so much for all of your replies and lovely comments about the tank.

Lots to think about here.



I agree that the SAE’s are out of proportion to the rest of the tank inhabitants but I’ve kept them with small fishes before and found them to be fairly active but completely non-aggressive. They, of course, will also munch on the algae that no-one else will touch so can aid as a good natural control (whilst you fix whatever caused the issue in the first place) Whilst not guaranteed, this can help to avoid use of chemicals on the (hopefully rare) occasions when this raises its head.
I agree that to my observation SAE are completely peaceful; was just commenting on the size difference. One barrier in selection suitable cichlid (apistogramma or otherwise) is the water hardness. There are options but it is a bit more limited than with soft water.
 

KirstyF

New Member
Messages
4
I agree that to my observation SAE are completely peaceful; was just commenting on the size difference. One barrier in selection suitable cichlid (apistogramma or otherwise) is the water hardness. There are options but it is a bit more limited than with soft water.
Yeah, the hard water is a bit of a bind but RO in a tank this size is definitely off the cards. I used to 50/50 RO in a previous location with even harder water but the tank I had then was only 160ltrs so much more manageable.

So I guess I’ve got macmasteri and Lateacara dorsiga to look at and I’ll keep reading, but if you do think of any others that might work, that would be great.
 

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