• Hello guest! Are you an Apistogramma enthusiast? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's a great place for Apisto enthusiasts to meet online. Once you join you'll be able to post messages, upload pictures of your fish and tanks and have a great time with other Apisto enthusiasts. Sign up today!

Another Apistogramma ID help thread....

Apistoguy52

New Member
I purchased these fish from aquabid recently, sold as "cf. taeniata/cf. reticulosa "Careiro", your guess is as good as mine".

When life resumes, and I BAP the offspring, what should I call them?IMG_20200527_190639.jpgIMG_20200527_190659.jpgIMG_20200527_190639.jpgIMG_20200514_191753.jpg
 

Frank Hättich

Active Member
5 Year Member
The photos I have seen of these on Facebook made me doubt that it is a form of A. cf. taeniata/resticulosa. The abdominal markings didn't fit to those known from resticulosa-complex species at all (instead of poorly defined streaks/dashes they showed rows of well defined streaks or spots sometimes even connected to form continous abdominal stripes). Moreover they showed a very pale zone between lateral band and caudal spot and the latter extended almost over the complete height of the caudal peduncle. My guess would be that it's more likely a regani-complex species with similarities to A. geisleri.
 

Apistoguy52

New Member
The photos I have seen of these on Facebook made me doubt that it is a form of A. cf. taeniata/resticulosa. The abdominal markings didn't fit to those known from resticulosa-complex species at all (instead of poorly defined streaks/dashes they showed rows of well defined streaks or spots sometimes even connected to form continous abdominal stripes). Moreover they showed a very pale zone between lateral band and caudal spot and the latter extended almost over the complete height of the caudal peduncle. My guess would be that it's more likely a regani-complex species with similarities to A. geisleri.
Interesting. Thank you!


I found these pictures, and they do seem to be identical to the fish I have.
 

Frank Hättich

Active Member
5 Year Member
Thanks for the link! However, I would better call your fish A. cf. geisleri (Careiro) instead of A. geisleri, because the latter's type-locality is some 100km away from Careiro.
 
Last edited:

Apistoguy52

New Member
cf. geisleri. Got it.

Quite amazing! Abidos is quite some distance from Careiro, near Manuas (200 miles?), and on the opposite side of the river.
 

Frank Hättich

Active Member
5 Year Member

Apistoguy52

New Member
There are more amazing instances of very similar species/forms found far apart from each other or even in different river-systems. If you are interested in this, I recommend this excellent article: PALEOGEOGRAPHY OF SOUTH AMERICA AND ITS EFFECTS ON THE DISTRIBUTION & PHYLOGENY OF APISTOGRAMMA-SPECIES-GROUPS by Mike Wise.
So if I am reading that correctly, a Regani Complex species, from the Southern bank of the Amazon would be quite the outlier? Reticulosa Complex +/- southern bank, Regani Complex +/- northern bank ? Bucket biologists stocking fish for easier collection later?
 

Frank Hättich

Active Member
5 Year Member
So if I am reading that correctly, a Regani Complex species, from the Southern bank of the Amazon would be quite the outlier?
Yes, but there are some from southern tributaries of the Amazon too. You can find more detailed information about the distribution of the regani-complex species (and in fact all other species-groups/complexes) here: Apistogramma Species List By Species-Groups/Complexes
Bucket biologists stocking fish for easier collection later?
Yes, unfortunately some fishermen/exporters resettle fish closer to their home/business to have easier access to them.
 
Last edited:

Apistoguy52

New Member
The photos I have seen of these on Facebook made me doubt that it is a form of A. cf. taeniata/resticulosa. The abdominal markings didn't fit to those known from resticulosa-complex species at all (instead of poorly defined streaks/dashes they showed rows of well defined streaks or spots sometimes even connected to form continous abdominal stripes). Moreover they showed a very pale zone between lateral band and caudal spot and the latter extended almost over the complete height of the caudal peduncle. My guess would be that it's more likely a regani-complex species with similarities to A. geisleri.
As I continue to try and research this, I am still somewhat confused. The abdominal stripes, and the pale zone between the lateral band, and caudal spot, land these fish in the regani complex in your opinion. That seems like a fair position, I understand that. I seem to be lost making the connections that would confer these fish with A. geisleri.

The orbital stripe, which if I read correctly, should always be present in geisleri, is present maybe 50% of the time with these fish.

The lateral band, which again, if I read correctly, is rarely present on geisleri, is present most of the time with these.

Caudal pattern of 5 bands, present on the center of the caudal (geisleri), vs 6/7 present on almost the entire caudal with these.

I've also seen it eluded to that geisleri displays no abdominal bands?

Am I just failing to see the forest through the trees so to speak? I am not sure how certain traits are weighed against others in things of these matters.
 

Frank Hättich

Active Member
5 Year Member
As I continue to try and research this, I am still somewhat confused.
Don't worry, it's pretty normal that the more you study this genus the more confusion arises ;)

The abdominal stripes, and the pale zone between the lateral band, and caudal spot, land these fish in the regani complex in your opinion. That seems like a fair position, I understand that.
The abdominal stripes are not a diagnostic feature of the regani-complex, such stripes occur in many species-groups/complexes. Regarding the abdominal stripes my main point was that they don’t fit to the resticulosa-complex. What makes me think these fish are a regani-complex species is the pale zone in front of the caudal spot and the latter’s vertical extension.

The orbital stripe, which if I read correctly, should always be present in geisleri, is present maybe 50% of the time with these fish.
Which of the orbital stripes does this statement refer to, pre- post-, sub- or supraorbital stripe? Anyway, according to my experience none of them is always present in any Apisto. These markings are highly dependent on the mood of the fish! In fact terms like “always” or “never” are almost always wrong when used to describe the phenotypic features of Apistos.

The lateral band, which again, if I read correctly, is rarely present on geisleri, is present most of the time with these.
My most trusted source of information about A. geisleri (Koslowski: “Die Buntbarsche Amerikas”, Vol. 2) doesn’t mention the rare presence of the lateral band at all nor do the photos I know of this species point towards this.

Caudal pattern of 5 bands, present on the center of the caudal (geisleri), vs 6/7 present on almost the entire caudal with these.
Caudal pattern can be very variable too in two respects: they often vary among different specimens of the same species (in some species from being present to being completely absent) as well as in different stages of life of the same specimen (usually there are less and/or less pronounced ones at younger age).

I've also seen it eluded to that geisleri displays no abdominal bands?
If you mean the abdominal stripes (referred to earlier), they are usually shown while being aggressive or displaying.

Am I just failing to see the forest through the trees so to speak? I am not sure how certain traits are weighed against others in things of these matters.
What makes the identification of Apistos so difficult, is on the one hand the variabilty of most of their phenotypic features within a given species and on the other hand the weighting of all the features against each other.
That your fish are a regani-complex species similar to A. geisleri is just my opinion and it might of course be wrong.
 

miguelgr7

Active Member
5 Year Member
I wanted to show you what I bought as A[istogramma cf. Taeniata but which was actually renamed as Apistogramma cf. Geisleri (Careiro) when I spoke with Frank, he explained several details that the fish showed that it was closer to being identified as Apistogramma cf. Geisleri (Careiro) , it was a good analysis and here I leave the photos of the fish I bought.

Greetings

1.jpg
2.jpg
 

Apistoguy52

New Member
Thank you for your patience Frank H. I have been using a couple older books borrowed from a few friends. I think I can blame my confusion on the somewhat dated information. It seems both books use photos of what I think would be holotype specimens A58? When I follow the list from TomC backwards, I find A59, sp emerald in the books, which is also referred to as A. geisleri on the list. This fish seems to share many more traits with my fish.
 

Apistoguy52

New Member
I wanted to show you what I bought as A[istogramma cf. Taeniata but which was actually renamed as Apistogramma cf. Geisleri (Careiro) when I spoke with Frank, he explained several details that the fish showed that it was closer to being identified as Apistogramma cf. Geisleri (Careiro) , it was a good analysis and here I leave the photos of the fish I bought.

Greetings

View attachment 8997View attachment 8998
Amazing! We have the same fish! Very nice photos BTW
 
Top