Agression observation

[anewbie]

I'm posting this thread in case others have contradictory data. There are two types of aggression - that intraspecific aggression and aggression to other species:
domestic cockatoo i found intraspecific aggression among males quite high in a 40b and 29 - no comment on females or observed aggression with other species
wc a. cockatoo. I had two m/f so can't comment on intraspecific aggression but the aggression to other species in a 40B was very very high with a dead guppy every day (they were replacement to borelli by the seller and so the tank was not setup for blackwater at the time; if i were to buy them again they would be kept in blackwater or at least soft acidic water).
wc a. wolli very aggressive to other species with daily attacks on n. marilynae and otto. I have 3 or 4 in a 29; most of the time the two females stay in their area of the tanks. If they get close to each other they will flare and attack and once i saw them lip locking which seemed a bit strange for two females. However they don't hunt each other and are content as long as they remain in their respected area. I have one confirm male and i have no data on it - it has never bothered to show itself long enough to attack any fish. I am not sure if there is a 2nd male i see them so infrequently i'm not even sure i see the same fish when i see it. With regards to the female aggression - the one without frys has no problem swimming to the top of a 29 to attack an oto on the underside of a floating leaf. The one with frys has done the same thing.
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wc a. ladislao - these seem to be quite passive so far - i have 6 in a dedicate 40 - i believe 4 females and 2 males. I think as of today one of the female is nesting. They will largely group up at the front when eating with very little aggression. They have shown no aggression to other fishes in the tank (kubotai rasbora and 1/2 inch swordtail frys).
I believe several species are sold under this name and i have no clue which one i own or if they all behave the same.
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wc a. sp winkelfleck - i have 2 females and a male in a 29 and some unknown number of ?8? week old frys. The two females and the male chase each other quite a bit but the aggression to other fish has been very low (some very young sterbai and some very old pangio of various species). I never seen them go after the pangio they did chase away the cory when they had frys. I think i even saw one of the pangio eating with the frys without any aggression from the parent. The sterbai are intended to be remove very soon - basically when i'm willing to tear apart the aquarium to find them.
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a. ipiranga - i have 6 or 8 wc - 2 males and 4 females - i can't rmember if there were 2 others - i had only ordered 4 - in a 65. Yesterday i found one dead - it was one of the four that hanged out in the front area - not sure why it died - it was one that came in a bit bruised but did not have obvious issues the past 2? 3? months i had it. Maybe the frozen shrimp i fed it was tainted as it died that evening. Anyway there is one large male and one ?subdomiant? male and 4 - now 3 females for sure. 2 of the females are nesting and i found their nesting locations but not if they have eggs or frys. There has been no aggression towards the dithers - the females have at times flared at each other but i have not observed much chasing. the two nesters are in areas of the aquarium where the others don't go - one is very back and one is more central right. One did die and i'm concern it might have been killed though when i'm in the room i never observed any chasing or obvious aggression by the 4 in the front.
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a. sp blutkehl - there was some aggression m/f but nothing too excessive. the female has a cave and whenever she was annoyed with the male she would go into the cave and 'cept when invited the male would stop at the outside of the cave. In many ways as only two fishes they are the most passive but i never tried keeping more than 2 together so i can't comment on the intraspecific species behavior. I had 6 n. mortenthaleri with them in a 20 long and there was no aggression till the female spawned. The n. morthenthaleri would not leave the female alone (the male didn't mess with them); so i removed them. I will try some n. marilynae next time i get some and i'm thinking of upgrading their aquarium to a 65. If i do i might keep enough frys to understand intraspecific aggression.
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domestic a. honglsoi - no real comment they were kind of boring fishes.
domestic a. borelli - no real comment they were kind of boring fishes.
- non apisto
I have 6 ivancara bimaculata with 3 a. ladisalo (yea i was sent some extras) - this has been most interesting. The ib are are f2 or f3 - at this point they have formed 2 pairs with 2 extra males in a 65; the two pairs have split the tank in half (24 inch each). The extra males are hiding somewhere and i would remove them if i could catch them but the tank was structured with a lot of over lapping driftwood to give them caves.
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WHat i have observed is that if a member of one pair crosses the center line the female will approach it and do a bit of flaring or tail wagging and if it doesn't leave the male will join and repeat the warning and then chase it (this mostly happens during feeding - and i try to put food in both territories - the pair on the left will wait but hte one on the right show less patience - you cant' feed both sides at once
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Their interaction with dithers have been nil. The interaction with the ladislao has been more interesting. One of the female has a territory and if they enter it she will chase them aggressively but they never chase her if she enters their territory (or i have not observed such and this is a good thing since they are substantially larger); the male doesn't seem to care and just ignores everyone. THe 2nd female while quite yellow seems unbounded and just does her thing and everyone ignores her as long as she stays out of the first female territory.
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While this might change the IB seem very passive and while i dont' want any fo the fishes to be harmed i am also curious to see what happens if one of the three groups manage to produce frys. So far they remind me very much of my krobia (which i keep with angels); they can easily get free swimming frys but they don't make a point of attacking other fishes if they stay away (the area they guard is quite small in a 120 - maybe 12 inches).
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The point of this post is if you have contradictory observation i would be interested in seeing them.

 

[Mike Wise]

Since when have guppies been a blackwater species? Much of their habitat in Trinidad has a brackish component. Most domestic guppies are also bred in Southeast Asia with a brackish component. When I kept them they only survived (for most of them) with some salt in the water. Your guppy deaths were more likely due to incompatible water conditions rather than attacks by your cacatuoides.

Aggression among apistos varies with species, whether they are polygamous, usually more monogamous, or form breeding (not mated) pairs. Other influences are tank size, number of each sex and tank decor. As for intraspecific aggression, most reports claim that females are much more aggressive toward other females of the same species than are males. This, of course, depends on tank size and decor.

 

[MacZ]

Since when have guppies been a blackwater species?

They are not, but ask Ivan Mikolji, I have read an interview, where he described catching guppies near Manaus in the Rio Negro.
Fits the bill to my observation: Seems like Guppy immediately start pushing out offspring once in a new habitat, and while the parents soon die off the first generation born in that habitat will make it.
Right now an acquaintance of mine is keeping Endler-Guppy in a softwater tank (EC about 100µS/cm) and it seems the population is stabilizing after only 2 months.

 

[anewbie]

Since when have guppies been a blackwater species? Much of their habitat in Trinidad has a brackish component. Most domestic guppies are also bred in Southeast Asia with a brackish component. When I kept them they only survived (for most of them) with some salt in the water. Your guppy deaths were more likely due to incompatible water conditions rather than attacks by your cacatuoides.

Aggression among apistos varies with species, whether they are polygamous, usually more monogamous, or form breeding (not mated) pairs. Other influences are tank size, number of each sex and tank decor. As for intraspecific aggression, most reports claim that females are much more aggressive toward other females of the same species than are males. This, of course, depends on tank size and decor.

As i noted I had ordered borelli and at the last minute the seller substituted the wc cockatoo hence the water was not blackwater but still 'soft' @ 120 tds. The guppies had been in the aquarium for years so i knew their pattern of change over trust me the cockatoo were butchering them. THey were old many generation inbred with lots of deformities - well enough that i wouldn't even give them away.

Having said that I did talk to a 'guppy' expert and there are guppies in blackwater though not the type you typically buy domestically. He provided a lot more details but i kind of didn't pay enough attention since i'm not into guppies any longer. I think the ones i had went back 8 to 10 years - not the individuals but the group as a whole.

 

[anewbie]

Aggression among apistos varies with species,

This is actually the point of my post. Being polygamous is of course an aspect of the species since different polygamous species have different level of aggression. The wild card is of course how the aquarium is scaped and when too small transitions to large enough for a group to co-exist. Also there seems to be a difference in behavior between 2, a few and many as seen by some comments on Tom's website.

The purpose of the post was to comment on specific species - and while my findings might be inaccurated or tainted by fish age (for example the wolli do in fact appear far more aggressive than the a. ladisalo i have but they a. ladisalo are in larger containers - as to the quality of the scape - i can't judge that as most folks on these forums find my scape rather poor. While the ladisalo do appear much larger than the wolli they don't appear to be breeding so perhaps they are not as 'mature' which might impact the behavior. I do hope that i am successful in keeping them in good condition and they do breed and i am interested if that changes their behavior. I was a bit shocked to see the female wolli to go the top of a 29 to attack other fishes - esp the one without frys. I don't think that sort of behavior (which might be common) is mentioned very often in these forums. In fact i frequently read that dithers at the top of an aquarium would be relatively safe. That fact that both females do this sort of thing suggest it is not a one off.

 

[Stijn1191]

My add-on for this thread: non-wc Apistrogramma sp. Abacaxis: A couple with broods non-stop. No agression to eachother whatsoever. The male comes to look at the babies from time to time and sometimes chases another fish away but in general not aggresive to the other fishes either (hatchetfish, cardinal tetra's and some nannostomus eques & copella meinkeni's.

Female no aggression without babies. But when with eggs or fry she keeps the other fish away +- 10cm.

Tank 120L with lots of plants & floating plants and some big pieces of wood and leaflitter.